Catching More Than Passes From Bobby: Stephen Schlesinger on what RFK Can Still Teach America

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Hello, my name is Andrew Keen.

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Welcome to Keen on America, the Daily Show
about everything that matters with the

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world's leading commentators and thinkers.

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Hello everybody.

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We are on the road today, uh, in the
Upper West side of New York City, uh, just

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beside Columbia University, uh, with, uh,
a man from one of America's most famous

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intellectual, uh, political families.

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Steve Schlesinger, uh, long time writer,
teacher observer of American Life.

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From a remarkable family, very much
involved with JFK and Bobby Kennedy.

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Uh, Steve, welcome to Keenon America.

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Thank you for having me.

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Well, you're very generous,
uh, with your time, Steve,

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uh, in early February of 2026.

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I have to ask you the, the great question,
what has happened to America, Steve?

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Well, I think America has
done something which is.

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Been true throughout its 250 years.

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It's got in, got into a kind
of fractured, uh, atmosphere.

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Remember, even when the American
Revolution happened, one

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third of the people in that
revolution were pro British.

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So you had a great division there during,
during that revolution, which everybody,

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some somehow thinks was very easy to.

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One, only on one side.

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Again, eruptions happened in, in the
Civil War where one, three, the whole,

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the entire south went in succession
because they didn't want, they didn't

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agree with the o. Other countries,
uh, other states of the north.

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Uh, and then during the, the, uh,
1930s when we had the Great Depression,

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all sorts of movements of fascism
and communism grew up because people

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were so discouraged or disparaging
of, of, of the federal government.

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We're going through something akin to
that today, which is that we have a. Hm.

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Kind of re right wing revolution going
on that is being led by a man named

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Donald Trump who's trying to impose,
uh, strictures and religious, uh,

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edicts and all sorts of right wing ideas
onto a country which is fundamentally

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not ready for that and was not.

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Really ready to have all this
happen over the last year, which

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we've just been going through.

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He, he, he right now is only
supported by one third of the

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country according to the polls.

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But he, but if you try to impose an
ideology, which is not, uh, freely

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shared for a country of over 330 million
people, you're gonna have huge divisions.

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And if you can only get
one third of that support.

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That means at least two thirds of
the country disagree with them.

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And, and under those circumstances,
it's a, it's understandable why

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you have such fracture today,
uh, in, in the United States.

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So is your response one of business as
usual in America, America's been through

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these crises before and it will go
through them again, or are you suggesting

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something different has happened?

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No, I, I, I think this is.

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Part of the pattern of America.

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We, we always go through periods where
we have these deep divisions usually

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created by internal crises, but often
because of, uh, foreign, uh, conflicts.

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Uh, and in doing so in, in a
great democracy, you have to

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work through the divisions.

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And that's the great thing about.

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Elections.

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The elections tend to reflect the
dominant feelings of, of the, of the

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voters, and surely in many ways, uh,
I would not predict it right now,

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but the polling suggested November.

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The Democrats will retake the, the,
the Congress, maybe even the, at

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least the House of Representative.

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Maybe this.

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Only because they're reflecting the,
the, the, the emotions and views

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of, of American people right now.

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So the, the elections are the
great solver of political problems.

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Unfortunately, it did not work
in at one point, and that was

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the Civil War where those, those.

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Tremendous, uh, emotions about
slavery could not just be

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resolved through elections.

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It had to be dealt with in, in,
in a open military conflict.

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But otherwise, most of the divisions
in the past in this country have been

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resolved through the election process.

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And, um, we'll see how
that goes this November.

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But my feeling is that many of
the issues that are apparently.

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Very upsetting to Americans.

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At least the majority of Americans
will be reflected in, in the outcome

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of of the November Congressional races.

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Steve, uh, all Americans, of course,
have a relationship with their country.

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They all have views on it, on
its strengths and weaknesses.

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You, as I suggested in the
introduction, are from one of

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America's most distinguished.

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Families, intellectual aristocracy.

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Your father was amongst the most, uh,
distinguished, influential, powerful,

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um, historians of the 20th century.

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Do you think you and the schlesingers
in particular have a, a different

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kind of relationship with America
than, shall we say more standard?

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Americans, more typical Americans?

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Well, I think that in a way, uh, I grew
up with, in my father taught at Harvard.

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My grandfather taught at Harvard.

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Um, and I, my other grandfather
taught at Harvard, one in

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medical school, one in history.

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Even my uncle taught at Harvard, uh,
uncle in law, he taught Chinese history.

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So I, I grew up in fairly.

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You know, I would say confined
atmosphere of, of a university

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town and to, to that extent, yes.

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I think that meant that I was not aware
of, of many of the great feelings and

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beliefs and struggles that main mainstream
Americans had on the other hand.

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The, you can look at communities around
the world, around around the country

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anyway, who live in gated communities or
live in, um, have, uh, various attachments

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to their factory that they're working at.

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And each time that you have these
little villages of thinking and,

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and, and, and pausing about what was
going on in the country in a way.

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They're as isolated in many ways as
a community that I grew up with in,

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in, in, in, at Harvard University.

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So the question is, how do
you bring them all together?

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How do, how do you make common
cause that allows people from.

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Various different levels of, of, of
the economic system and from wealth

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to the poverty make them feel a
part of the country as at, at large.

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And I think that struggle has always
been the issue that, that faces

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every politician in this country.

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And I, I do feel that in many
ways I had to go through my own

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struggle, uh, of kind of getting
away from the Harvard community.

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And, and in my case, I moved
from Cambridge to to New York.

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I started working in local politics
here as well as a journalist, and

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began to open my vision about what
life was all about, and I, I think that

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was a very important, um, mark along,
along the development of my own life.

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I think most people, if they don't.

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Ever leave their own one,
one small community don't get

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that kind of, um, experience.

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And so at least in my case,
it really opened my eyes.

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What did your grandfathers and
your father and all your remarkable

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family, what did they teach you or
not teach you about being American?

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Well, my father.

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As my grandfather, both named Arthur
Lesinger, one senior, one Junior, were

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very great patriots of American life.

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Uh, my grandfather, Arthur Lesinger
senior, wrote pioneering books about the

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colonial period of American history and.

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Marveled at the fact that the US
developed out of these small little

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states that have been settled mainly
by, uh, English, uh, religious groups

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or o other European movements, and
was a, and my father on his side.

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Marveled that the fact, 'cause he wrote
about, uh, early American President

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Andrew Jackson, and then later American
Presidents, uh, Franklin Roosevelt and

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John F. Kennedy about the reli resilience
of America in the sense that it had it,

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it's lasted for right now, over 250 years.

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Uh, and it, it, it's only been.

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In a sense struck down only one
point in its history by war,

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and that was the Civil War.

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But otherwise, it's managed to resolve
the issues that are splitting the country

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through the process of negotiation,
election, uh, and, and the feeling that.

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D Democracy will solve the
problem in, in the long run.

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So I think he also feels very Patriot,
has did feel very patriotic about

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the country, to the point where he
joined the Kennedy administration as

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a special assistant to John Kennedy,
where he could actually see how the

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government operated from the inside.

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Whereas before, he'd only written
about it as a scholar from the outside.

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He was a, a central figure
in the mythology of.

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The JFK administration in
Camelot was close to the whole

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family, including Bobby Kennedy.

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What are your memories of that, Steve?

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Is the romance, um, the
nostalgia, is it justified?

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I think from my own experience,
I, I, I really regard that

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time is a very romantic time.

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I, I met President Kennedy three
or four times when I was growing

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up and to be in his presence.

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It was as it was if you were, he
had a kind of magnetic personality.

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He, he, he was strikingly handsome.

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He had a great, wonderful sense of humor.

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There was a, just a kind of warmth
about him, and you just had the

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feeling of this young man, he was
in his forties when he became an

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American president, that he, he had a
dynamism and, and vision and enthusiasm

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that would, that could take you.

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To places you never imagined
before in this country.

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And it, it was a genuine, uh,
kind of, uh, environment that,

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that, that he, he created.

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Uh, it is fair, I think, to look back
on that as a, a romantic time because

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he, he was unique in the sense that he
was able, also able to use television

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and radio and all the, um, media
outlets of that time in a way that.

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He, he seemed to leap out
through the cameras to the people

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in, in, in the communities.

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So they felt a feeling of solidity
with him and a feeling of, of, of,

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um, admiration for what he was doing.

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And of course, he had a young
family, a beautiful wife,

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all of these quite original.

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Factors.

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He was almost like a
movie idol in many ways.

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His brother, Robert Kennedy, who I
got to know a little better through,

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again, through my father, uh,
was also a, a, a striking figure.

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Also a had a kind of magnetism to
him, um, and a man of, of great

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values in terms of where he.

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F thought the country should be going.

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Um, I remember one time that my father
took me out to dinner with Bobby

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Kennedy and a, a number of other people
at a restaurant in New York City.

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Uh, this is when Bobby Kennedy had become
a senator from, from, from, uh, New York.

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And one of the striking
features of Bobby to me anyway.

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Was he, he was, he had
great vulnerability.

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It, it sounds kind of odd to say that
about a man who's always been accused

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of being ruthless and, and, um, you
know, this kind of slam bang towards

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politics and people, but at least in,
in these informal encounters, he talked

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very, um, very honestly about his own.

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Feelings about what life was all about.

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At that particular dinner, he asked us,
he went around, about seven or eight

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of us, went around the table asking us,
do you still, do you believe in God?

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Well, I mean, that was in 1967.

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This is.

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A time when he was already being
considered as a possible candidate

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for the presidency in 1968.

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And it's just struck me as why would
a man of this intensity and ambition

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be talking about these issues?

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And he was, it became clear that
he himself was struggling with,

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with his own spiritual feeling.

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He said at one point, I never asked
to be born, but I am born and, and I,

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I am alive and I have to deal with.

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The, the life that I have, and I, and
religion has been one of the kind of

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things that have gotten me through
terrible crises in, in the past.

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And obviously he was referring to
the assassination of his brother

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four or five years earlier.

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Um, and he, so he, he, he, he told,
he told us that he had been ready.

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Reading Graham Green's book, the Power
and the Glory, which is about a Defract

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priest struggling with whether he was
still religious or not, a reflection

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of his own inner emotions about
whether he still felt religious or not.

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And remember the, the Kennedy family
is a strong Catholic family and

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was brought up, uh, you know, in
Catholic schools and very, very much.

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Part of, uh, you know, churches
and, and, um, rituals that are part

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of the Catholic, uh, community.

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And to have him talk about the
struggle with religion was fascinating.

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Do you think that that confidence, shall
we say, in his vulnerability, in his own

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vulnerability, which you just described,

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is a reflection.

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Of the complexity of the family, of
this aristocratic enormously rich family

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in a supposedly democratic country.

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What can the stories of both
JFK, you mentioned that he was

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a, a Hollywood like star and his
more vulnerable brother Bobby.

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What can that teach us about
politics in the 2020s in terms of.

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Progressives either coming up with a
candidate like JFK, who can compete with

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right wing demagogues or perhaps more
human characters like Bobby Kennedy.

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Well, of course, every candidate for the
presidency is individual in their own way.

225
00:16:34,445 --> 00:16:40,475
So, uh, the Kennedy certainly had what
we call charisma, uh, that that ability

226
00:16:40,475 --> 00:16:49,505
to project a kind of force field of,
of, uh, enthusiasm and attraction

227
00:16:49,505 --> 00:16:56,615
and, and, uh, almost a, you know,
gl glitterati, uh, uh, in politics,

228
00:16:57,095 --> 00:17:01,535
which is not shared by many other
politicians, Richard Nixon, for example.

229
00:17:01,710 --> 00:17:06,990
Did not have any of those qualities, uh,
and yet he also became elected president.

230
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:15,810
Um, I think that first of all, what it
says is that in at least, uh, in politics

231
00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:21,690
of this time when, when we have so many
different media outlets, not only in

232
00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:24,540
on television, the internet streaming.

233
00:17:25,089 --> 00:17:26,979
Uh, iPhones and so on.

234
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:33,070
It's very important for a politician
to have a larger than life personality

235
00:17:33,070 --> 00:17:38,290
in order to kind of grab attention
through these different outlets.

236
00:17:38,919 --> 00:17:43,570
Uh, obviously Trump has it because
he's been elected twice and he.

237
00:17:44,129 --> 00:17:48,960
He dominates the airwaves and,
and, and the print media and,

238
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:54,120
and all the internet outlets in a
way that is quite extraordinary.

239
00:17:54,629 --> 00:18:00,330
Uh, but it's because he has a, a, a,
a personality that, uh, is, is very

240
00:18:00,419 --> 00:18:04,770
conscious of how to communicate using
all these different, different outlets.

241
00:18:05,225 --> 00:18:10,200
But he also has a, a powerful
personality of his own.

242
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:11,220
In my view.

243
00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:12,030
It's the wrong.

244
00:18:12,465 --> 00:18:16,665
He has the wrong views, but you have
to concede that this is one of the

245
00:18:16,665 --> 00:18:18,795
strengths he's had as, as a leader.

246
00:18:19,275 --> 00:18:24,585
And I think Kennedy, the both Kennedys
also had those same strengths, but with,

247
00:18:24,585 --> 00:18:26,415
with, in my view, with the good views.

248
00:18:26,895 --> 00:18:35,430
And so you do have to have a, a, a very,
um, attractive, uh, powerful character.

249
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:38,220
To be able to run for the presidency.

250
00:18:38,910 --> 00:18:46,920
People don't have that extreme ambition
and, and energy and, and sheer, um,

251
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:52,620
fortitude to go out on a political
trail day after day, week after

252
00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:57,120
week, month after month, year after
year, they just drop by the wayside.

253
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,370
Uh, and so this combination
of, of appealing through.

254
00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:09,990
Uh, your personality and as well as
handling the, the media and, and coming up

255
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:14,219
with views that are attractive to voters.

256
00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:20,370
That's the, uh, magic soup I think
that creates a good candidate.

257
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:25,949
But coming back to the Kennedys,
uh, old Joe Kennedy, first of all

258
00:19:25,949 --> 00:19:27,990
prepared his, his first son, Joe.

259
00:19:28,265 --> 00:19:32,495
Junior, the pre to become president, and
he of course died in the Second World War.

260
00:19:32,495 --> 00:19:38,135
So he was then replaced by the
second son, uh, Jack Kennedy.

261
00:19:38,135 --> 00:19:41,765
And then of course, after the
assassination of Jack by Bobby, in a

262
00:19:41,765 --> 00:19:44,015
sense, Joe Kennedy was preparing them all.

263
00:19:44,554 --> 00:19:47,254
Intellectually, globally, financially.

264
00:19:48,665 --> 00:19:54,245
And that speaks to what we talked about
earlier, this contradiction between the

265
00:19:54,245 --> 00:19:59,760
promise, the ideals of American democracy
and the reality of American Aris.

266
00:20:00,610 --> 00:20:04,780
For better or worse, a country
which has always been the home of,

267
00:20:04,975 --> 00:20:09,189
of, uh, families of, of remarkable
inequality, of great wealth.

268
00:20:09,189 --> 00:20:11,830
Joe Kennedy at one point, I think
was the richest man in America.

269
00:20:13,149 --> 00:20:16,750
Is there an argument to be made,
Steve, when we look at the, the

270
00:20:16,750 --> 00:20:21,730
Kennedy family, that aristocracy
isn't such a bad thing when it comes

271
00:20:21,730 --> 00:20:23,860
to training democratic leaders?

272
00:20:24,850 --> 00:20:27,580
Well, I think aristocracy
has played a group, you know,

273
00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:29,200
huge role in American history.

274
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:29,950
I mean, after all.

275
00:20:30,510 --> 00:20:34,290
Theodore Roosevelt came from a
very aristocratic background.

276
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:42,930
His, his, uh, other ancestor, uh, uh,
successor Franklin Roosevelt was from

277
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:45,630
a aristo aristocratic background.

278
00:20:46,110 --> 00:20:47,950
And the Kennedys, as you point out.

279
00:20:48,790 --> 00:20:50,709
Themselves had that kind of,

280
00:20:50,709 --> 00:20:56,635
and all progressions, of course,
Teddy, uh, uh, FDR, Jeff K and Bobby

281
00:20:56,635 --> 00:21:00,760
Kennedy, all perhaps the foremost
influential progressive American

282
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,379
politicians of the 20th century.

283
00:21:03,010 --> 00:21:03,909
This is true.

284
00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:07,870
I mean, it is a fact that,
that some of the most liberal.

285
00:21:08,590 --> 00:21:13,060
Uh, presidents we've had, have had
come, come from these very wealthy,

286
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:20,350
uh, well established families and have
been able to nonetheless feel the pulse

287
00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:26,860
of the common people and re respond to
their needs and d desires as president.

288
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,120
On the other hand, we've also had
aristocratic presidents who have

289
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,970
sure, you know, given little.

290
00:21:34,565 --> 00:21:38,405
Attention to the poor people and
have come from very rich families.

291
00:21:38,915 --> 00:21:41,855
I don't know if you put Trump in
that area, but he did come from a

292
00:21:42,125 --> 00:21:47,795
family that had huge wealth when he
started in politics and he's given

293
00:21:48,035 --> 00:21:52,535
short shrift to all the issues that
progressives have, have cared about.

294
00:21:53,225 --> 00:21:59,495
But by and large, uh, it is a striking
factor that that of the of, of, if

295
00:21:59,495 --> 00:22:01,385
you look back at the great presidents.

296
00:22:01,790 --> 00:22:07,820
In American history, they have come from
these very high highfalutin backgrounds.

297
00:22:07,820 --> 00:22:12,470
You know, whether it, they're very
good university education, whether

298
00:22:12,830 --> 00:22:17,810
it's, uh, the wealth, whether it's
the, um, contacts, the community,

299
00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:19,760
the, the, uh, social level.

300
00:22:20,175 --> 00:22:25,365
All of those factors have helped
propel many of these c candidates in,

301
00:22:25,365 --> 00:22:31,605
into the presidency and into, to re
to responding to the, to the needs

302
00:22:31,605 --> 00:22:35,580
of, of the community at large as
opposed to the to, to their narrow.

303
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,720
Uh, aristocratic background,

304
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:44,389
Steve, as, as you say, you have a
number of memories of Bobby Kennedy.

305
00:22:44,389 --> 00:22:45,800
You spent some time with him.

306
00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:51,860
Uh, you gave the anecdote about
his vulnerable side, but of course,

307
00:22:51,860 --> 00:22:54,050
he was also a pretty tough guy.

308
00:22:54,050 --> 00:22:57,560
Physically tough involved when he
was a young man in many fights.

309
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:59,389
Mentally tough in many ways.

310
00:22:59,930 --> 00:23:00,935
What do you remember about.

311
00:23:01,735 --> 00:23:04,195
Bob's hardness about his toughness?

312
00:23:04,825 --> 00:23:06,295
Well, that's an interesting question.

313
00:23:06,295 --> 00:23:12,085
I, I, one day my father took
me out to, um, their place in,

314
00:23:12,085 --> 00:23:13,405
in the hills, is it called, um,

315
00:23:13,885 --> 00:23:14,575
Hickory Hill.

316
00:23:15,385 --> 00:23:18,770
One day my father took us
out to Hickory Hill and, uh,

317
00:23:19,230 --> 00:23:20,730
Mrs. The, the family of stayed,

318
00:23:20,875 --> 00:23:23,815
the family of, stayed for
Bobby, for Bobby and his kids.

319
00:23:24,535 --> 00:23:28,615
And I had not really ever
been out there before.

320
00:23:29,515 --> 00:23:31,075
And the moment I arrived.

321
00:23:31,175 --> 00:23:34,565
Yeah, Bobby said, we're gonna
go pay, play, touch football.

322
00:23:35,495 --> 00:23:37,085
And I thought, wait a minute.

323
00:23:37,085 --> 00:23:39,215
I didn't come out to thieve that.

324
00:23:39,215 --> 00:23:39,365
How old

325
00:23:39,365 --> 00:23:40,100
were you then?

326
00:23:40,385 --> 00:23:42,605
I was about 20, 21.

327
00:23:43,445 --> 00:23:47,225
And, uh, so we ended up
playing touch football.

328
00:23:47,225 --> 00:23:51,730
I, I, I, I. As, you know, touch football,
you don't tackle, but you just touch

329
00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:55,240
somebody and you know, and, and that
means that they freeze and then that

330
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,240
they can't, uh, they can't move anymore.

331
00:23:58,780 --> 00:24:03,340
Um, but the point was that
he had me go out for passes.

332
00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:03,820
Okay?

333
00:24:04,210 --> 00:24:08,080
Now, I hadn't played football
in years and, uh, what he

334
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,810
tossed me a bullet of a pass.

335
00:24:11,020 --> 00:24:14,980
I fumbled it and, and, and, and I,
because it caught me by surprise.

336
00:24:14,980 --> 00:24:17,409
But he intended to be very.

337
00:24:18,179 --> 00:24:19,560
Precise in what he wanted to do.

338
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,899
He said, I want you to go out,
I want you to catch his press.

339
00:24:22,740 --> 00:24:26,250
When I came walking back
humiliated for having not caught

340
00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:28,050
this press, he gave me a look.

341
00:24:28,050 --> 00:24:35,159
That made me think, man, you don't, you
don't, you don't push around this guy.

342
00:24:35,159 --> 00:24:36,330
You don't mess with him.

343
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:37,500
He wants what you want.

344
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:39,030
He, he wants what he wants.

345
00:24:39,689 --> 00:24:42,185
And so the second time he
had me go out for that past.

346
00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:47,430
I damn well caught it 'cause I didn't
wanna get the wrath of him on from

347
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:51,870
me, you know, failing a duty that
he had expected me to complete.

348
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,490
So that, that to me is an illustration,
a small one from a young kid.

349
00:24:56,490 --> 00:25:00,870
But, uh, aside to Bobby Kennedy
says he, he's a tough man.

350
00:25:00,870 --> 00:25:04,110
He wants what he wants, and
he expects you to live up to.

351
00:25:04,465 --> 00:25:09,115
His, uh, his, um, hopes and
dreams of what you're gonna be.

352
00:25:09,745 --> 00:25:11,095
What was Hickory Hill like?

353
00:25:11,695 --> 00:25:16,345
Hickory Hill was a kind of huge estate.

354
00:25:17,064 --> 00:25:19,044
It had a huge swimming pool in the back.

355
00:25:19,435 --> 00:25:25,405
It had a big lawn where you could,
you know, play football and, uh, and

356
00:25:25,405 --> 00:25:27,294
I guess they played other sports too.

357
00:25:27,980 --> 00:25:31,975
It, it, it, the house itself
seemed to go on and on.

358
00:25:31,975 --> 00:25:33,445
It had lots of rooms and.

359
00:25:33,535 --> 00:25:39,580
Of course, you know, he had what, 11
or 12 kids, um, and there was a, a

360
00:25:39,585 --> 00:25:42,085
sense of informality about everything.

361
00:25:42,085 --> 00:25:47,005
You know, everybody was kind of b bouncing
around and trying to do this or that.

362
00:25:47,005 --> 00:25:48,685
Everybody had a, had a, um.

363
00:25:50,659 --> 00:25:54,710
Uh, a thing that they, they liked
to do, whether it was a hobby or

364
00:25:55,250 --> 00:25:59,510
some, some, some of the kids had
little animals that they played with.

365
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:01,670
It was a sense of fun.

366
00:26:01,730 --> 00:26:05,300
I mean, it was just rough
and rough and ready.

367
00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:05,870
I remember.

368
00:26:06,554 --> 00:26:11,385
Later talking to Jackie Kennedy and,
and one of the few times I ever had a

369
00:26:11,385 --> 00:26:16,425
chance to speak with her, and she told
me that, you know, she wanted to keep

370
00:26:16,425 --> 00:26:22,125
her son and daughter away from the
Bobby's family because it, she felt

371
00:26:22,125 --> 00:26:24,705
that they were so, so many of them.

372
00:26:24,705 --> 00:26:26,325
And so kind of.

373
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:33,670
Loose loosely, um, able to go
anywhere they wanted and, and

374
00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:38,050
kind of free to do everything that
she didn't want her kids to do.

375
00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:42,820
That she felt if she, if if they
got, if her two kids got exposed

376
00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:46,240
to them, that this would be
disruptive to, to her own family.

377
00:26:46,540 --> 00:26:48,820
So it was a different style.

378
00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:55,000
Bobby was full of excitement and
let's do things and we gotta.

379
00:26:55,425 --> 00:27:01,785
All get together and wrestle and, you
know, take trips and climb mountains.

380
00:27:02,175 --> 00:27:06,795
And Jackie was much more let's,
you know, get your education and

381
00:27:07,305 --> 00:27:10,995
you know, do the things that are
gonna get you a good job later on.

382
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,439
And, and stick with the, the
tried and true e lives of

383
00:27:16,590 --> 00:27:18,540
what I would call aristocracy.

384
00:27:19,860 --> 00:27:23,970
Your father knew both men very
well, worked with both men closely.

385
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,210
How did he distinguish
between the two of you?

386
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,300
Well, my father was close to, more,
closer to Bobby than he was to Jack,

387
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,010
but he was, he loved them both.

388
00:27:35,010 --> 00:27:39,419
I mean, Jackie said Jack
Kennedy was more reserved.

389
00:27:39,419 --> 00:27:45,740
He had a. Um, he didn't express his
emotions the way Bobby did, and he, but,

390
00:27:45,860 --> 00:27:50,360
but yet you felt this kind of magnetism
about him that, that he, that he had

391
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:56,720
strong feelings about things and that he
wanted to do with his life, uh, fulfill

392
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:02,090
changes in, in America as, as a country
in, in good ways, whether it was in civil

393
00:28:02,090 --> 00:28:05,180
rights or disarmament, or working with.

394
00:28:05,730 --> 00:28:10,470
Um, getting treaties passed,
like the test band treaty.

395
00:28:11,129 --> 00:28:17,460
Um, whereas Bobby, while he was very
com uh, committed to all the issues

396
00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:23,639
his brother cared about, was much
more intense and emotional and, and

397
00:28:24,629 --> 00:28:27,149
open about his feelings in a way that.

398
00:28:27,794 --> 00:28:35,955
Um, also had a very huge attraction
to people and, and it, it gave you

399
00:28:35,955 --> 00:28:38,355
that sense of, of his vulnerability.

400
00:28:38,955 --> 00:28:44,429
Whereas Bobby, whereas Jack was
a, uh, self, self composed man.

401
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:50,550
But nonetheless knew his strengths,
his weaknesses, and, and was able to

402
00:28:51,389 --> 00:28:56,280
accommodate all the different issues he
had from growing up in a way that made

403
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,260
him a, a quite extraordinary president.

404
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,080
And I think Bobby would've been
an extraordinary president, but

405
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,090
in a different way with all the,
all the issues he would care about

406
00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:11,100
were the same as brother, but he
would've, he would've articulated

407
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:13,530
them differently and he would've, um.

408
00:29:14,030 --> 00:29:22,250
Probably, uh, campaign for them
in, in, in his own eclectic way.

409
00:29:22,370 --> 00:29:30,290
His own, um, special, um, magnetic
way that I regard both of them had.

410
00:29:30,775 --> 00:29:37,465
So I I, but that, those, those, to me,
the, the composed Jack and the emotional

411
00:29:37,585 --> 00:29:42,625
Bobby were the two strains in, in of,
of the, of the, of those two brothers.

412
00:29:43,825 --> 00:29:46,225
What are your memories of
the two assassinations?

413
00:29:48,535 --> 00:29:51,505
The first assassination happened
while I was at Harvard as an

414
00:29:51,505 --> 00:29:54,205
undergraduate, and I, I remember.

415
00:29:54,775 --> 00:29:58,045
Uh, being absolutely torn.

416
00:29:58,045 --> 00:30:05,305
I mean, you know, this man had become
so much of a part of our family because

417
00:30:05,305 --> 00:30:07,135
of my father's involvement with him.

418
00:30:07,675 --> 00:30:10,705
And he was an idol at, at, uh, Harvard.

419
00:30:10,705 --> 00:30:14,395
He'd gone to there as an
undergraduate and he had a, um.

420
00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:20,830
That charisma that you couldn't, you know,
delineate, you couldn't write it down.

421
00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:22,960
It was part of his being.

422
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:25,900
Uh, it's not something you can just adopt.

423
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,270
You can't say I'm gonna be charismatic.

424
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:30,160
You, you know, you either
have it or you don't.

425
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:39,040
So I was absolutely shaken up and I,
that day flew down to Washington and my

426
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,170
father took me to the White House where.

427
00:30:42,130 --> 00:30:45,730
We, um, there many mourners had gathered.

428
00:30:46,330 --> 00:30:48,100
I did not go into the White House.

429
00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:54,100
My father actually was asked by the family
Kennedy family to go look at the, um,

430
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,880
the Kennedy's body to.

431
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,389
Find out whether he should
be in an open coffin or not.

432
00:31:01,540 --> 00:31:01,689
Mm-hmm.

433
00:31:02,110 --> 00:31:03,610
And my father said no.

434
00:31:03,939 --> 00:31:08,649
He didn't feel, he felt that the
damage done by the bullet was too,

435
00:31:08,739 --> 00:31:10,449
too terrible for that to happen.

436
00:31:11,379 --> 00:31:14,560
Um, but I did remember.

437
00:31:15,545 --> 00:31:23,795
Watching after, after an afternoon at,
at, at the White House, a cartage of,

438
00:31:25,565 --> 00:31:31,865
actually a series of, of, um, black
limousines leaving the White House.

439
00:31:32,975 --> 00:31:39,785
One of them had Lyndon Johnson, the
new president in inside, and that was.

440
00:31:41,225 --> 00:31:42,350
A startling thing.

441
00:31:42,350 --> 00:31:44,209
'cause I suddenly realized
we have a new president.

442
00:31:45,020 --> 00:31:51,139
This is somebody that we're gonna be
having as a new figure in the White House.

443
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:54,500
And it kind of, it kind of

444
00:31:57,169 --> 00:32:00,469
abruptly brought me back to
the reality what was going on.

445
00:32:00,925 --> 00:32:03,985
So I do remember that very,
very, very vi vividly.

446
00:32:04,705 --> 00:32:11,845
Um, as for Bobby's assassination, I was
at, at, uh, I had just finished Harvard

447
00:32:11,845 --> 00:32:14,725
Law School and I was taking the, um,

448
00:32:16,915 --> 00:32:21,535
law school, sorry, the,
um, state law bar exam.

449
00:32:21,535 --> 00:32:23,425
And this was of course, June, 1968.

450
00:32:23,425 --> 00:32:25,405
This was June of 1968.

451
00:32:25,405 --> 00:32:25,435
This was eight.

452
00:32:25,515 --> 00:32:28,155
Three months after MLK
had been assassinated.

453
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:32,685
This is, this has been a
totally troubling period.

454
00:32:33,225 --> 00:32:37,425
Martin Luther King's assassination,
uh, three months before Bobby's,

455
00:32:37,425 --> 00:32:43,560
and then Bobby's, uh, being shot in
in Los Angeles, uh, in a way that.

456
00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:47,780
Mm, just the, you had the feeling
the country was falling apart.

457
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:54,350
I mean, how could you have so much
violence having survived an assassination

458
00:32:54,350 --> 00:32:59,780
four or five years earlier of our
American president, it, it, it made.

459
00:32:59,885 --> 00:33:05,045
It gave us all sorts of anxiety about
where, what do we do with our lives?

460
00:33:05,105 --> 00:33:07,745
How do we go on to the next days?

461
00:33:07,745 --> 00:33:10,504
Where do we, where do we fit?

462
00:33:11,075 --> 00:33:13,445
Can we get into a routine?

463
00:33:13,445 --> 00:33:14,715
That brings me back to, uh.

464
00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:16,870
You know, more peaceful time.

465
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:21,340
All of these issues swir around,
swir around swirled around my mind.

466
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,110
So do you remember you, you
said you were taking an exam.

467
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:24,520
Do you remember the moment you heard?

468
00:33:25,540 --> 00:33:30,670
I, I do not remember the exact
moment, but I will say that as a

469
00:33:30,670 --> 00:33:36,610
result of that assassination, I took
my mind off the reviews for the exam

470
00:33:36,970 --> 00:33:38,560
and I failed the exam in the end.

471
00:33:38,650 --> 00:33:40,330
I, I just was so.

472
00:33:41,565 --> 00:33:43,275
Blindsided by what was going on.

473
00:33:43,275 --> 00:33:49,455
I, I just couldn't fo focus or concentrate
on, on, on, on the, um, on the whole

474
00:33:51,045 --> 00:33:54,105
notion of, of passing this test.

475
00:33:54,105 --> 00:33:59,565
And it was, so, I had, in a sense,
it, it derailed me at that time.

476
00:34:00,165 --> 00:34:05,955
And, um, no, but I don't remember the
exact moment of, of, of hearing the news.

477
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,085
I, I, by then, I was.

478
00:34:08,699 --> 00:34:13,440
Kind of had been living in Cambridge
for, at Harvard Law School for the

479
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,629
last four or five years, falling
my undergraduate years there.

480
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:23,730
And so I had sort of gotten more
detached from Washington and, and,

481
00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:28,620
and father was no longer living in
Washington, was living in New York.

482
00:34:29,129 --> 00:34:29,520
So the.

483
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,310
Connection to the Kennedy family had
kind of lapsed in those years that I was

484
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:42,130
at law school and, and it didn't mean
I feel didn't, did not mean I did not

485
00:34:42,130 --> 00:34:45,760
feel terrific anger and upset and, and.

486
00:34:46,420 --> 00:34:50,800
Absolute, uh, anguish over what
had happened to Bobby, but I, I

487
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,370
didn't feel the intensity of the
relationship is strong anymore.

488
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,580
Do you think he had a
chance to be president?

489
00:34:57,580 --> 00:34:59,050
It still seems to be a great debate.

490
00:34:59,050 --> 00:35:01,690
Some people say that it was must map.

491
00:35:01,765 --> 00:35:05,424
Dramatically impossible for him to
have won the Democratic nomination.

492
00:35:05,545 --> 00:35:09,685
Others suggest that he would've been
issuing, and of course then he would've

493
00:35:10,435 --> 00:35:14,245
faced off against Richard Nixon
in another Nixon Kennedy election.

494
00:35:15,234 --> 00:35:20,305
Well, I mean, I, I, I personally
believe that if, if Bobby had, had

495
00:35:20,305 --> 00:35:25,015
won, had, had sort, he had lived,
that he, I think he would've had a

496
00:35:25,015 --> 00:35:26,694
hard time getting the nomination.

497
00:35:27,025 --> 00:35:29,095
But Humphrey was so weak at that point.

498
00:35:29,214 --> 00:35:31,464
I mean, he was, he was
so associated with the.

499
00:35:31,774 --> 00:35:37,565
Vietnam war that I, I suspect a lot
of Humphrey ites who did in the end

500
00:35:37,924 --> 00:35:43,145
vote for him for the nomination after
Bobby's assassination might have been

501
00:35:43,145 --> 00:35:48,455
able, might've broken away from him
on the theory that, that Kennedy was

502
00:35:48,455 --> 00:35:53,615
representing the real strong feelings
of, of, of Democratic voters in,

503
00:35:53,615 --> 00:35:56,464
in, in his anti-Vietnam campaign.

504
00:35:56,944 --> 00:35:58,895
And that, that, uh, he also.

505
00:36:00,455 --> 00:36:06,725
Had, you know, this strong charisma,
which Humphrey lacked and, and that

506
00:36:06,725 --> 00:36:13,565
Humphrey had been kind of Defen
defend, rated by Lyndon Johnson.

507
00:36:13,565 --> 00:36:16,145
He'd been, you know, weakened.

508
00:36:16,225 --> 00:36:22,585
By this very strong president who ordered
him around and made him look like a, um,

509
00:36:22,765 --> 00:36:31,194
you know, some meek follower or, or a
sub, uh, you know, a kind of hanger on as

510
00:36:31,194 --> 00:36:33,475
opposed to a real figure in his own right.

511
00:36:34,165 --> 00:36:38,245
And I think from my point of view, it
would've been, it would've been close, but

512
00:36:38,245 --> 00:36:40,585
I think Kennedy could have pulled it off.

513
00:36:41,535 --> 00:36:45,435
I know the, the other argument
is that Humphrey had the

514
00:36:46,515 --> 00:36:48,345
mainstream Democrats on his side.

515
00:36:48,345 --> 00:36:53,475
He had the, all the, the supporters
of Lyndon Johnson on his side had,

516
00:36:54,105 --> 00:36:58,575
had the, had the many of the state
leaders on his side because he

517
00:36:58,575 --> 00:37:04,095
was the man all was considered as,
as the next presidential dominee.

518
00:37:04,545 --> 00:37:05,865
So it would've been a struggle.

519
00:37:06,075 --> 00:37:08,170
It would've been a struggle,
but I, I, I do believe that.

520
00:37:08,785 --> 00:37:10,134
Kennedy would've won in the end.

521
00:37:11,095 --> 00:37:14,395
Steve, you've gone on to become
a distinguished historian.

522
00:37:14,395 --> 00:37:18,265
One of your best known books
is a book about the foundations

523
00:37:18,265 --> 00:37:19,645
of the United Nations.

524
00:37:20,214 --> 00:37:26,694
Uh, the Kennedy family has a, again,
typically ambivalent Kennedy way,

525
00:37:26,694 --> 00:37:29,815
a very complicated relationship
with America's role in the world.

526
00:37:30,444 --> 00:37:33,000
Uh, Joe, old Joe Kennedy, of course.

527
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,250
Uh, was in some ways an isolationist,
very controversial in his relations with

528
00:37:38,250 --> 00:37:43,259
Nazi Germany and in his determination
that seemed in the late thirties, early

529
00:37:43,259 --> 00:37:45,629
forties to keep America out of the war.

530
00:37:46,170 --> 00:37:48,299
And yet he turned out two boys.

531
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:53,660
Jack and, and Bobby who were
committed internationalists.

532
00:37:53,660 --> 00:37:56,990
As I said, you've written about the
foundations of the United Nations.

533
00:37:56,990 --> 00:37:59,899
They were both in their own
ways, very comfortable with

534
00:37:59,899 --> 00:38:03,080
America's place in the world.

535
00:38:03,230 --> 00:38:06,890
Um, given now the enormous.

536
00:38:07,274 --> 00:38:10,904
Controversy about America's
new place in the world.

537
00:38:10,904 --> 00:38:15,795
Donald Trump's retrenchment, if
that's the right word, from America.

538
00:38:16,274 --> 00:38:20,085
From America's role in supporting
democracy and its relations with

539
00:38:20,085 --> 00:38:24,915
Europe and its commitment to world
peace and global institutions, what

540
00:38:24,915 --> 00:38:30,285
should we remember about the Kennedy
boys commitment to internationalism

541
00:38:30,855 --> 00:38:33,254
and America's central role in that?

542
00:38:34,065 --> 00:38:36,640
Well, I think we fir, let's
first talk about Jack.

543
00:38:37,035 --> 00:38:42,075
Kennedy, you remember he a, after he
came back from England, he wrote a fam

544
00:38:42,165 --> 00:38:44,174
famous book called Why England Slept.

545
00:38:44,270 --> 00:38:44,560
Yeah.

546
00:38:45,464 --> 00:38:45,705
It was a best seller.

547
00:38:45,799 --> 00:38:45,960
Remarkable.

548
00:38:46,060 --> 00:38:47,924
He was about, what, 22 or something?

549
00:38:47,955 --> 00:38:48,705
Exactly.

550
00:38:48,705 --> 00:38:52,515
It was a best seller and basically
he made the argument that the,

551
00:38:52,515 --> 00:38:58,004
the British fell down and the
rep reparations for possible war.

552
00:38:58,610 --> 00:39:02,750
Against the Nazis and it was only
Churchill finally woke them up in time.

553
00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:07,220
But that, uh, so they were ill
prepared for, for a second World War.

554
00:39:07,850 --> 00:39:14,900
And he also be, had, become a,
uh, hero during the war itself.

555
00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:21,080
When his PT boat was sliced in half by
a Japanese destroyer and he was able to

556
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:29,930
survive the attack and, and bring a number
of his crew mates, he had to tug with

557
00:39:30,350 --> 00:39:35,960
debris and bring them along swimming to
an island nearby and save their lives.

558
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,820
So he was, he was a man who had
experienced war, had written about.

559
00:39:41,405 --> 00:39:45,605
What war preparations you need
if you're gonna win a battle.

560
00:39:45,935 --> 00:39:52,205
And, and somebody who, uh, in 1945,
after he'd gotten outta the war,

561
00:39:52,505 --> 00:39:57,635
became the correspondent for the Hearst
Papers covering the San Francisco

562
00:39:57,635 --> 00:40:00,875
conference to set up the UN in 1945.

563
00:40:01,445 --> 00:40:06,695
So he had, it was clear, he had
a grand view of what the world

564
00:40:06,695 --> 00:40:08,105
was all about, that America.

565
00:40:08,465 --> 00:40:15,335
Had to be part of the, the, uh, community
of, of states around the planet.

566
00:40:15,575 --> 00:40:19,355
It could not isolate itself
in, in contradiction to his,

567
00:40:19,595 --> 00:40:20,675
what his father believed.

568
00:40:21,395 --> 00:40:27,605
And then when Kennedy became president, he
was the only president who ever mentioned.

569
00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:31,799
In his inaugural address the
importance of the United Nations.

570
00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:36,180
So you can tell you right there
where, where his head was at in

571
00:40:36,180 --> 00:40:41,549
terms of international life and,
and how America fit in to the,

572
00:40:42,089 --> 00:40:45,240
um, world community and Bobby.

573
00:40:45,299 --> 00:40:52,410
And he, and on his part was, you
know, all had figured as the attorney

574
00:40:52,410 --> 00:40:55,585
general in, in, in, in a number of, uh.

575
00:40:56,180 --> 00:41:01,520
Episodes that were involved, foreign
intrusions, mainly the Cuban Missile

576
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,140
Crisis, which he and his brother
helped settle, uh, through a series

577
00:41:06,140 --> 00:41:10,575
of negotiations, ma, many of them done
through the United Nations, but also.

578
00:41:11,330 --> 00:41:16,190
Hammered out in, in these, uh,
small, uh, national security

579
00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:17,420
meetings at the White House.

580
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:25,160
So they, they both had a tremendous
knowledge of international

581
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,410
affairs and, and the importance of
America having allies in order to

582
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:33,470
survive in a very troubled world.

583
00:41:33,770 --> 00:41:36,920
I mean, one of the great lessons
of the second World War is America.

584
00:41:37,015 --> 00:41:39,265
It won that war, but not alone.

585
00:41:39,595 --> 00:41:44,424
It won it because it had, it had its
European allies, it had the Soviet

586
00:41:44,424 --> 00:41:48,895
Union, which was traditionally
a, an antagonist of ours.

587
00:41:49,254 --> 00:41:53,725
But that was the only way you're gonna
win the great battles is to have allies.

588
00:41:53,725 --> 00:41:59,935
And both Bobby and Jack understood
that that was part of what America, the

589
00:41:59,935 --> 00:42:01,975
American presidency should be all about.

590
00:42:02,335 --> 00:42:05,004
That's what both Kennedy's.

591
00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:09,570
Stressed in, in their own
arguments about how do, how do you

592
00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:11,430
conduct American foreign policy.

593
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:15,480
It's something we've lost as of
today with Donald Trump, who doesn't

594
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,170
really believe in allies, believes
you should ha, have, have an American

595
00:42:19,170 --> 00:42:21,240
first policy that you go it alone.

596
00:42:21,245 --> 00:42:26,190
You, you pick up some allies here and
there, but you don't commit yourself to,

597
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:29,520
you know, organizations like NATO or.

598
00:42:29,935 --> 00:42:30,595
To the un.

599
00:42:30,595 --> 00:42:33,115
You, you, everything is done unilaterally.

600
00:42:33,745 --> 00:42:36,984
And, uh, I think he's making
a grave mistake, but it's not

601
00:42:36,984 --> 00:42:38,245
a mistake the Kennedy's made.

602
00:42:39,355 --> 00:42:43,734
Couple of months ago, Steve, we
had your friend Chris Matthews, Mr.

603
00:42:43,734 --> 00:42:45,475
Hardball, M-S-N-B-C.

604
00:42:46,015 --> 00:42:50,814
On the show, he'd written a book,
uh, to honor Robbie Kennedy's.

605
00:42:51,850 --> 00:42:55,150
Hundredth year anniversary, the
hundredth year anniversary of

606
00:42:55,150 --> 00:42:58,690
his birth in 20, uh, in 1925.

607
00:42:58,690 --> 00:43:06,310
He was born in, uh, November, 1925,
and Chris's book was about lessons

608
00:43:06,490 --> 00:43:09,280
that we should still learn from Bobby.

609
00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:13,300
Uh, I'm not sure if you had a chance to
look at the book, but are there lessons.

610
00:43:14,135 --> 00:43:18,995
That we can still learn in
early 2026 from Bobby Kennedy.

611
00:43:18,995 --> 00:43:22,985
He's hasn't been around for
a long time, but he still has

612
00:43:22,985 --> 00:43:25,175
an enormous emotional weight.

613
00:43:25,175 --> 00:43:29,405
Many people, including yourself and
Chris Matthew, still have a great deal

614
00:43:29,405 --> 00:43:31,805
of nostalgia for such a remarkable man.

615
00:43:32,825 --> 00:43:35,915
Well, the thing about Bobby
is his intensity, his.

616
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:42,950
W belief in, in, in, in truly
improving the lives of his, of the

617
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:47,690
people of, of, of, of, of the United
States in a way that you don't see

618
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:49,700
very often in politicians today.

619
00:43:49,940 --> 00:43:54,050
I mean, Bobby was willing to go into
the slums of Harlem and into the

620
00:43:54,380 --> 00:44:00,860
poverty, uh, places in, in Mississippi,
and talked to directly with.

621
00:44:01,330 --> 00:44:05,800
Impoverished individuals who had
practically no money to live on

622
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:11,170
and dwelled in shacks or had no
cars, had to walk everywhere.

623
00:44:11,710 --> 00:44:15,130
He cared about these people
and it came through in, in

624
00:44:15,130 --> 00:44:17,080
the way he conducted his life.

625
00:44:17,650 --> 00:44:22,900
And I think that would be one great
lesson for me is, is it the caring, the

626
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:27,370
the compassion, the feeling that, you
know, you may come from a very wealthy

627
00:44:27,370 --> 00:44:30,160
background, but you can sympathize.

628
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:37,140
About the imp impoverished people of, of
your own community, and you try to help

629
00:44:37,140 --> 00:44:40,620
them out and you try to improve government
and you understand that government

630
00:44:41,399 --> 00:44:45,930
can be a dynamic force in lives, that
it's not something to be objected to.

631
00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:48,029
It's, it's there to help people.

632
00:44:48,660 --> 00:44:51,180
And that of course is the
great, uh, division between

633
00:44:51,180 --> 00:44:52,044
Republicans and Democrats.

634
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:57,100
Republicans basically believe in small
government, uh, Democrats believe

635
00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:02,200
in, in a forceful, big government,
which cares about the community as a

636
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,600
whole, not the narrow rich people that
the Republicans tend to to focus on.

637
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,560
Uh, and I think the Kennedy's
very Bobby in particular.

638
00:45:12,330 --> 00:45:20,310
Uh, was so, so broad-minded in, in his
intense feelings about his country,

639
00:45:20,310 --> 00:45:25,080
people, his countrymen and women,
that that's, that, that, that lesson

640
00:45:25,710 --> 00:45:30,420
should be one that I think democratic
candidates in the future should draw on.

641
00:45:31,010 --> 00:45:31,955
And I think it ha it.

642
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:39,140
It is a helpful ingredient in a successful
campaign to have that compassion and

643
00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:44,570
show it as part of what is important
about American values as a country.

644
00:45:45,140 --> 00:45:47,915
And those values have kept
us together for 250 years.

645
00:45:50,020 --> 00:45:56,020
Let's end where we began, Steve,
um, with, uh, your thoughts

646
00:45:56,020 --> 00:45:57,730
about the future of America.

647
00:45:57,730 --> 00:46:01,180
I know you've got young grandchildren.

648
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:04,565
What wisdom given your long life?

649
00:46:05,404 --> 00:46:09,725
In American politics and studying
American history, what wisdom

650
00:46:11,134 --> 00:46:16,205
would you or do you pass on to your
grandchildren about America and being

651
00:46:16,205 --> 00:46:18,125
an American in the 21st century?

652
00:46:19,055 --> 00:46:23,465
Well, one of the most important
pieces of wisdom, and from my part.

653
00:46:23,570 --> 00:46:23,600
Okay.

654
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,730
As regards that question is that
every American has a civic duty.

655
00:46:29,330 --> 00:46:31,040
Now what do I mean by civic duty?

656
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,390
I mean, if you're gonna live in
this country, you have to care about

657
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:38,240
how the country conducts its life.

658
00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:39,529
That means voting.

659
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,390
Voting is part of your civic
duty, uh, caring about issues.

660
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,630
That are gonna affect you and your
community and be willing to fight for

661
00:46:48,630 --> 00:46:51,900
them or fight against them if they're,
if they're, they're, if they're wrong.

662
00:46:52,620 --> 00:46:54,420
Um, making sure that.

663
00:46:54,780 --> 00:47:00,750
Any job you take in life is, is one
that yes, it will make you money, but it

664
00:47:00,750 --> 00:47:07,260
doesn't exclude you from being involved
in the greater community at large and

665
00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:12,610
worrying about your compatriots and your
neighbors and, and, and wanting to be.

666
00:47:13,345 --> 00:47:17,035
Part of a much larger, um, populace.

667
00:47:17,545 --> 00:47:23,995
And I think in the end, it, it's the
values that the founders established

668
00:47:23,995 --> 00:47:30,145
through the US Constitution, uh, of
freedom of speech, freedom of assembly,

669
00:47:30,445 --> 00:47:36,085
all the freedoms that, that, uh, we have
lived with for, for the last 250 years.

670
00:47:36,715 --> 00:47:38,065
We cannot discard them.

671
00:47:38,065 --> 00:47:39,265
We have to stick by them.

672
00:47:39,845 --> 00:47:44,045
Every new generation has to fight again.

673
00:47:44,285 --> 00:47:50,675
It's like a re fight for the same,
uh, classic, um, freedoms that we

674
00:47:51,275 --> 00:47:52,745
treasure from the constitution.

675
00:47:52,745 --> 00:47:56,225
We have to re fight for them every
new generation because there's

676
00:47:56,225 --> 00:48:00,515
always gonna be a dynamic in the
pa, in, in the background, which is

677
00:48:00,515 --> 00:48:02,435
trying to wipe those freedoms out.

678
00:48:03,005 --> 00:48:03,680
And so right now.

679
00:48:04,585 --> 00:48:11,695
Uh, I would tell my go have told my
grandkids, you know, the Trump phenomenon

680
00:48:11,725 --> 00:48:16,490
is a, is a bad phenomenon for this country
because it is contradicting the great.

681
00:48:17,235 --> 00:48:22,185
Virtues of America life,
particularly as they are exemplified

682
00:48:22,185 --> 00:48:23,655
through our US Constitution.

683
00:48:23,865 --> 00:48:24,885
But we can get through them.

684
00:48:25,215 --> 00:48:29,655
We have to fight them, and, and
we, we, we will win elections in

685
00:48:29,655 --> 00:48:33,105
the future, which will change us
back to our traditional values.

686
00:48:33,585 --> 00:48:36,120
But that can't, that is
a fight that never end.

687
00:48:36,825 --> 00:48:40,845
You have to be committed to it throughout
your life and that is your si civic duty.

688
00:48:42,135 --> 00:48:45,585
Well, Steven Sles, you're real
honored to have you on Keenon America.

689
00:48:45,585 --> 00:48:50,685
Thank you so much for your, your
wise memories of the Canadas and

690
00:48:50,685 --> 00:48:52,365
their relevance in the twenties.

691
00:48:52,365 --> 00:48:52,785
Twenties.

692
00:48:52,785 --> 00:48:53,445
Thank you so much.

693
00:48:53,895 --> 00:48:54,570
Well, thank you for having.