Yes, It's Fascism: Jon Rauch on Trump and the F Word

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Hello, my name is Andrew Keen.

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Welcome to Keen on America, the Daily
Interview Show about the United States.

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Hello everybody.

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A couple of weeks ago, an article
came out in the Atlantic by an old

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friend of the show, Jonathan Raush.

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Um, he announced that, "yes, it's
fascism," big picture of Donald Trump.

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Uh, he announced that he believed that
Donald Trump was, in many ways a fascist.

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The article has gone viral.

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Uh, I saw Jon, uh, on all sorts of
shows including Andrew Sullivan, Sam

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Harris, some of the top podcasts.

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Uh, and in contrast with Sullivan
and Harris, you get this podcast for

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free, so you don't have to subscribe
to, uh, hear our whole conversation.

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Jon is joining us, as
always, from Washington DC.

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Jon, were you surprised with
the response to this article?

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Did you expect it to be as popular?

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My sense from listening both to
the the Sullivan and the, uh, the

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Harris, uh, shows was that they were
really pleased with this article.

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It was almost as if you were
legitimizing their thinking.

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You know, Andrew Sullivan
said, ex exactly that.

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Um, I thought it might get a readership.

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I I was right about that.

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I thought it would be controversial.

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I was wrong about that.

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I have yet to see a single
substantial article that has argued

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with it in any substantive way.

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You know, there've been a
couple of hahas on social media.

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But apparently, uh, the proposition
that Donald Trump is a fascist in,

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in a very real sense, a documentable
sense went almost overnight from being

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farfetched to being uncontroversial.

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Apparently.

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I actually, uh.

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Perhapsie'll be your first critic.

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I don't agree.

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Uh, maybe we can get that into
that, into the conversation.

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But before we start,
lay out your arguments.

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Why in your view is Trump a fascist?

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I, I was one of those people
like you, Andrew, and like so

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many others who thought the
term fascism should be avoided.

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Because first of all, it's been.

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Defined and misdefined and overextended
and stretched beyond all recognition by

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progressives who call you a fascist if
you oppose affirmative action or abortion.

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Uh, second, because I thought it was
likely to pointlessly, alienate the

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people who voted for Trump, but who
were not convinced he was a fascist

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and who are not themselves by any
stretch of the imagination, fascists.

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And third, because I just
thought there was too much about

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Trump that just didn't fit.

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Uh, I went with, in, in
a book I wrote last year.

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I went with the term semi fascist, which
Joe Biden actually used in a speech.

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And the reason I went with that
is that I went down a list of, of

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items, characteristics that are
often associated with fascism.

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And Trump met about half of them,
but he didn't meet the other half.

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You know, he wasn't invading
other countries, for example.

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And so I thought the term, uh, just
didn't fit and the events of the

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last few weeks and months convinced
me that I was wrong because he was

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ticking so many of those boxes.

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So I sat down, I made a list.

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I came up with 18 characteristics that
are all frequently found in fascism.

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And all of which are inconsistent with
liberal democracy and there they all were.

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And at that point I decided it's just
perverse to withhold the label for

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what's what someone just seems to be.

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My biggest problem is that you seem to,
if not confuse, gloss over the difference

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between fascism and authoritarianism.

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You bring up Franco, for example,
who wasn't a fascist, who never

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got on well with Hitler, was
very different from Mussolini.

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What for you is a fascist and how the,
how, how, how would you distinguish a

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fascist from a traditional authoritarian
like Franco and so many other.

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Political leaders in in human history?

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Well, or, or for that matter.

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From a Patrimonial list, which I think,

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right.

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And, and we've done shows on Patrimonial.

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The book on Paton was authored
by our friends, uh, Steve Hanson.

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Jeff Cote has also been on the show.

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Yes.

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And who are correct about that.

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I think Trump's being a patrimonial
list is literally uncontroversial.

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He just clearly is one.

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Fascism is, well, I'm.

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I should say I am not a leading
scholar on this subject, but

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fascism is not a well-defined idea.

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It was incoherent from the start.

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People who called themselves
fascists were very different.

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Hitler, Mussolini, very different.

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Hitler wound up having
contempt for Mussolini.

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My understanding is that Franco did
define self-defined as a fascist.

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I think Orwell certainly
thought of him that way.

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Um, I think Imperial Japan was
probably a form of fascism, but.

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But I don't wanna, you know,
my, my goal is not to get hung

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up on particular taxonomies of
the early to mid 20th century.

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What I tried to do is look at
characteristics, which we associated

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with the particular form of
authoritarianism that we identify

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with fascists, for instance.

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The philosophy, the political theory
of Carl Schmidt, for example, the

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idea that we, in a, in a society, we
don't have political adversaries, we

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have enemies, and you've gotta crush
them, which we saw emerge under Trump.

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Um.

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The, uh, territorial ambitions
which we saw emerge under Trump, the

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explicit embrace of might is right.

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The kind of, uh, nihilistic,
fascistic idea that if you're strong,

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you do what you get away with and
the weak suffer what they must.

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So all of these, it seemed to
me, and, and, and others on the

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list give a sense of ideological
directionality to this administration,

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which I had not seen before.

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You mentioned Orwell.

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You bring him up in the book, and
Sullivan is a big fan of Orwell.

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He wrote, of course, his famous essay
politics in the English language

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and the English language in which
he argued the word fascism and he,

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I think he was writing this in 1946.

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I think the word fascism has
now no meaning except insofar

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as it signifies something.

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Not desirable.

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You talked about that, Jon, and
obviously, um, that's still true, but

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shouldn't we be situ? I mean, the word
fascist was invented by Mussolini.

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It came out of a specific moment
in European and world history.

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It came after the first World War, and
if you turn it into this generic term,

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it loses any kind of real meaning.

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I'd agree with that if I were using it
as a generic term, but I think I'm using

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it in reference to 18 specific items
which align with what I think a lot of

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people today would identify as fascism.

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You know, the dual state which we
saw under Nazim, I already mentioned.

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Schmidt, um, I mentioned the
idea that might is right and the,

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the strong take what they like.

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Uh, um, we could go through this list.

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Sam Harris did well,

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although, again, the point is, I,
I'm a bit kind of nitpicky, but the

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idea of might is right, is certainly
not just, uh, an idea of, of fascism.

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I mean, you, you can go right
back to the beginnings of.

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Western philosophy on politics
and power to find that.

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I mean, even Machiavelli suggests that
sometimes, certainly, uh, Plato covers it.

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He, and, and, and the word fascism
didn't exist in, in antiquity.

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So, uh, but coming back, Jon, too.

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I mean, for me, the most interesting thing
about this, and it's a wonderful piece.

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I mean, I think everyone watching
listening should read it.

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It's extremely coherent and
in some ways convincing.

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Um, for me, the interesting
thing about Trump is what makes

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him different from fascist.

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Hmm.

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Although.

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I agree with you that some of the,
the features that you describe him

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as, uh, makes him like, I guess a,
a post, uh, an an interwar fascist.

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But the two things that come
to mind that make him unlike a

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fascist or make this moment unlike
fascism in America is firstly.

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The fact that fascism came out of this
catastrophe of the first World War.

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And secondly, it was a, a movement
of young people and Mussolini

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Hitler were young political leaders.

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The thing that seems to me about Trump
is he is an old man, and, and this

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is in some ways is a cratic movement.

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How does the generational
element play in here?

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Can old people be fascists?

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I suppose they can, I,
we, we may differ in that.

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I am not all that interested in asking
the question, how much does what Trump

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is doing resemble the particular forms
of fascism that we saw in the 1930s.

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'cause I don't think it has to.

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The question I'm interested
in asking is if you invent.

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Uh, if you, if you take the core ideas
of those regimes, the things that they

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tended to have in common, you know,
the dehumanization of the opponents,

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the military adventurism, uh, and so
forth, the things we're discussing

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and you apply them in the 21st century
in America, what would it look like?

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And I think it looks something like this.

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Uh, yeah.

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Trump is old.

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He's been saying the things
he's been saying For a long time

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I was on someone else's show.

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And he read a quote, which I hadn't
seen, which I would've used if I

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had, it's from 1990 and it's Trump
in an interview saying that the

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problem with Gorbachev, I'm loosely
paraphrasing, but this is the right idea.

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The, the problem with Gorbachev
is that he wasn't tough enough and

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that Trump admired the Chinese for
cracking down in Gentleman Square.

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That's how you do it.

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So he's been like this a long time.

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Um, I would point out that
the people around him are

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not as old as he is JD Vance.

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Stephen Miller, uh, Russell V and others
in that group, many of whom are the

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ones who are actually building this out
into something more like an ideology.

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Yeah, I think the best, the best example
of a fascist in the administration

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is, is, is probably Miller.

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I'm not sure about, uh, vo.

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Um, but coming back to this I issue of,

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yeah,

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I would say vote is not
probably an ideological

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fascist,

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but he

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adopts this back to this, this idea of a
gerontocracy, uh, Samuel Moyne, as I said.

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Coming out with a book about it.

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Can old people be fascist?

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Uh, Jon, I mean, the whole idea of fascism
is a, a dynamic rejection of modernity,

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a love of speed, almost a, a, a very
ambivalent attitude towards technology.

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Should

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we be?

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I guess I'd have to say since
we're seeing those things from

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our president, we saw them in big,
bold letters in Doge, for example.

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Um, in the revolutionary language
that they've employed that, that

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Russell VO has employed, um, and
that, uh, Chris Ruffo has employed.

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I, I guess I have to see apparently
old people can be fascists

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because that's what they're doing.

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You talk about blood and soil nationalism,
again, I, I mean, it goes without saying.

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I'm, I'm not a. Supporter of Trump, but I
wonder whether a, a, a high profile, uh,

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invasion a day invasion of, of Venezuela.

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Conforms to the kind of fascist
militarism that Mussolini or

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Hitler, uh, were responsible for.

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I mean, Trump's foreign policy, his
theatricality over Greenland, this

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odd chapter over Venezuela, it doesn't
strike me as blood and soil nationalism.

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This is one of the factors that tipped
me over into applying the term, and

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it is certainly not the first time
by a long shot that the United States

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has thrown its weight around in the
Western Hemisphere or anywhere else.

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You know, uh, Woodrow Wilson
had Poncho Villa, uh, chase,

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poncho Villa, all over Mexico.

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Um, among many other
examples, what's different?

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The reason that this got my attention was
Trump said, Venezuela, we want the oil.

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We're getting the oil.

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Rubio comes out, secretary of State,
and says, no, there are a bunch

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of other reasons why we did this.

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You know, we're interested in human
rights and Iran has a foothold

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down there, and this regime is
supporting Cuba and so forth.

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And Trump comes out and says,
no, no, we want the oil.

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They're gonna play ball.

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We'll get the oil.

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Greenland, they have land.

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We want the land.

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We're gonna threaten
them to take the land.

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He didn't.

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In the end, this is not the way Americans
have talked in the fast, but it is

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characteristic of fascist regimes.

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They tend to be ideological, aggressive
and in their early stages, revolutionary.

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So.

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When I saw that, when I saw of
course Minneapolis, when I saw Steven

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Miller's statement that, uh, force
power is the iron law of the world,

228
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:41,790
when I saw his statement saying that
of progressives, you are nothing, uh,

229
00:14:41,790 --> 00:14:44,580
I couldn't turn a blind eye to that.

230
00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:51,330
But Jon, the, this foreign adventurism
that you describe was a feature of

231
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,900
19th, certainly 19th century America.

232
00:14:54,900 --> 00:15:00,480
As you, as you, as you say, certainly
of the colonial states of 19th century

233
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:09,930
Europe, does any state that seeks any kind
of adventurism overseas, is it fascist?

234
00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:12,480
I know I keep on coming
back to the F word.

235
00:15:13,635 --> 00:15:18,675
I'm not denying that Trump is guilty
of some of the things that you

236
00:15:18,675 --> 00:15:20,655
talk about, but it's not fascist.

237
00:15:20,655 --> 00:15:24,495
It's just the way
authoritarian states behave.

238
00:15:24,675 --> 00:15:30,345
And sometimes democratic states, I
mean, Britain, America, were semi

239
00:15:30,345 --> 00:15:32,145
democracies in the 19th century.

240
00:15:32,655 --> 00:15:40,665
There are authoritarian states
that do not engage in um, um.

241
00:15:41,235 --> 00:15:44,295
What's the word for when
you call someone an animal?

242
00:15:44,834 --> 00:15:49,185
In that kind of of rhetoric, there
are authoritarian states that do

243
00:15:49,185 --> 00:15:53,535
not explicitly use coercion to
take things from other countries.

244
00:15:54,314 --> 00:15:57,194
There are authoritarian states
that do not explicitly say.

245
00:15:58,770 --> 00:16:02,520
The rule of the strong, that the
rule of force is the iron law.

246
00:16:03,210 --> 00:16:10,710
Um, many authoritarian states do, of
course have, um, national paramilitary

247
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:14,850
police forces, and many authoritarian,
you know, it's one could get tied

248
00:16:14,850 --> 00:16:17,505
up in watts, knots all day debating.

249
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,020
Is this authoritarianism?

250
00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:19,680
Is it fascist?

251
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:25,830
Is it patrimonial is my method Here
is, I think it's a constellation.

252
00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:30,569
There's no textbook, yes, no
bright line definition of fascism.

253
00:16:30,569 --> 00:16:32,610
'cause fascism itself is incoherent.

254
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,400
But what you can do is recognize a
whole constellation of characteristics.

255
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,630
And if you see them all, that's when
I'm willing to pull the trigger.

256
00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:47,010
Now, others may not be, but
as I said, this surprise is.

257
00:16:47,594 --> 00:16:52,574
I've seen very little pushback and
I think what we saw in Minnesota.

258
00:16:52,574 --> 00:16:53,834
Tell me what you think, Andrew.

259
00:16:55,334 --> 00:16:59,625
I don't get the impression that
this administration is embarrassed

260
00:17:00,525 --> 00:17:03,104
about being identified as fascistic.

261
00:17:03,915 --> 00:17:06,645
They're not going to use the term
themselves for obvious reasons,

262
00:17:08,685 --> 00:17:10,665
but I think they made very obvious.

263
00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:16,050
In Minneapolis and in Stephen Miller's
statement and in threatening an ally

264
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:17,880
to try to get its land and so on.

265
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,119
I don't think they're
disguising who they are.

266
00:17:21,329 --> 00:17:25,170
I think they want us to know that,
and I think the people who are

267
00:17:25,170 --> 00:17:30,180
actually squeamish about applying the
term fascist are not on their side.

268
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:33,300
They're on our side, and
that's what I'd hope to change.

269
00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:38,400
I mean, I, I, I don't necessarily
disagree with you about Miller,

270
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,700
but again, I mean, he's just one
figure in this administration.

271
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:48,510
You, in the essay you talk about mobs
and street thugs, uh, you talk about,

272
00:17:48,570 --> 00:17:55,110
um, Trump's language, uh, in, uh.

273
00:17:56,024 --> 00:18:02,715
On January 6th, and of course there's lots
of parallels with, um, with Minnesota.

274
00:18:03,315 --> 00:18:08,955
Uh, you refer to Hitler's
Kris program of 1938.

275
00:18:09,405 --> 00:18:14,190
And again, I'm not justifying Jon,
what I. Trump and his allies got up

276
00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:19,290
to in Minnesota or on January 6th,
but when you compare Kristol Knight

277
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:26,700
where 30,000 Jewish men were arrested,
the 1400 synagogues were burnt down.

278
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,970
Aren't you doing, in a sense, an
injustice to history by comparing this.

279
00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:39,780
Rather haphazard authoritarianism
on the part of the Trump

280
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,680
administration with what the Nazis
got up to, uh, on Crystal Knight?

281
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:44,910
Yes.

282
00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:47,040
If I were saying that I, I would be wrong.

283
00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:51,750
Um, a a point I make in the article
and perhaps should have emphasized

284
00:18:51,780 --> 00:18:58,950
even more by putting it at, at the top
instead of the bottom, is that when

285
00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:02,760
I say that Trump is a fascist leader.

286
00:19:03,419 --> 00:19:09,419
Or even that he's running in practice
of fascist presidential administration.

287
00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:17,850
I am not saying that America has a
fascist government or is a fascist

288
00:19:17,879 --> 00:19:23,370
country, and that is very different from
Mussolini or Hitler who moved quickly and

289
00:19:23,370 --> 00:19:26,070
decisively to seize all levers of power.

290
00:19:27,195 --> 00:19:30,075
Um, that is not the case in America.

291
00:19:30,165 --> 00:19:32,295
Trump does not control the courts.

292
00:19:32,295 --> 00:19:33,345
He may defy them.

293
00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:37,815
Uh, he's already playing games with
them, but he can't control them.

294
00:19:37,815 --> 00:19:38,655
That's become clear.

295
00:19:38,655 --> 00:19:40,095
He can't control the media.

296
00:19:40,095 --> 00:19:41,325
He's trying very hard.

297
00:19:41,325 --> 00:19:42,975
That's an important thing on this list.

298
00:19:42,975 --> 00:19:44,775
He's following the whole Orban playbook.

299
00:19:45,825 --> 00:19:47,445
He can't control the states.

300
00:19:47,445 --> 00:19:52,155
There's sovereign authorities under the
Constitution, and he clearly can't control

301
00:19:52,155 --> 00:19:54,495
public opinion because it is tanking.

302
00:19:56,025 --> 00:20:01,995
Uh, for all those reasons, I think
that he is already failing and will

303
00:20:01,995 --> 00:20:08,025
fail to turn America into a fascist
country with a fascist government.

304
00:20:08,745 --> 00:20:12,135
So the point of my article is to
alert us to who he is and what

305
00:20:12,135 --> 00:20:17,025
he's trying to do in hopes of being
better prepared to prevent it.

306
00:20:17,625 --> 00:20:19,335
But yes, I think you will fail.

307
00:20:21,630 --> 00:20:26,430
You use a term, I think later in the
essay, uh, you talk about American

308
00:20:26,430 --> 00:20:28,650
fascism, and I think that's a good term.

309
00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:32,250
I think that's a more helpful
term than just the word fascism.

310
00:20:32,250 --> 00:20:36,420
I'm not convinced that that's,
uh, the right way of going.

311
00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:41,145
What is it about America that.

312
00:20:42,284 --> 00:20:47,804
Lends itself to perhaps this
21st century version of fascism.

313
00:20:47,804 --> 00:20:51,405
You and I have talked in the past,
you're a critic of postmodernism.

314
00:20:51,405 --> 00:20:57,915
Is there a, a, a a fascist postmodernism
that Trump seems to be peddling here?

315
00:20:59,205 --> 00:20:59,564
Yeah.

316
00:20:59,570 --> 00:21:01,605
Well that's, that's an interesting.

317
00:21:02,835 --> 00:21:03,735
Interesting question.

318
00:21:03,735 --> 00:21:03,855
Yeah.

319
00:21:03,855 --> 00:21:07,515
I wrote an article last year
about the rise of the postmodern.

320
00:21:07,515 --> 00:21:07,754
Right.

321
00:21:07,754 --> 00:21:09,254
We talked about that on the show.

322
00:21:09,254 --> 00:21:10,515
Some people call it the woke.

323
00:21:10,515 --> 00:21:10,815
Right.

324
00:21:10,815 --> 00:21:12,765
But, but I think neither, we both agreed.

325
00:21:12,765 --> 00:21:14,175
We don't really like that term.

326
00:21:15,105 --> 00:21:17,025
And the postmodern has more to do with it.

327
00:21:17,025 --> 00:21:20,295
And this is kind of their nihilistic
attitude toward truth and their

328
00:21:20,295 --> 00:21:24,075
deliberate trolling, their use
of, of insults and cynicism.

329
00:21:24,135 --> 00:21:30,345
Uh, the kind of, uh, nothing LOL, nothing
matters mentality that they use to, um.

330
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:35,100
Uh, to goad and neutralize
their critics and so on.

331
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:42,990
And we see, I guess, some elements
of that in 1930s style fascism.

332
00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:49,050
You know, Hitler said somewhere in Amp,
uh, it doesn't matter if they mock us

333
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,280
or laugh at us, all that matters is
that they can't stop thinking about us.

334
00:21:54,270 --> 00:21:58,560
But yeah, you've got in, you've got
instrumentalities of the internet now.

335
00:21:59,670 --> 00:22:03,000
Um, which of course
you hadn't seen before.

336
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:08,670
Um, and you've got in the figure of
Trump, you know, we call him an old

337
00:22:08,670 --> 00:22:14,790
man and obviously he is, but he's
so savvy about the use of media to

338
00:22:14,790 --> 00:22:19,835
constantly dominate the dialogue so
that we're always thinking about him.

339
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:21,930
Um, we can't get him out of our mind.

340
00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:24,990
One of the reasons I
thought that it's useful.

341
00:22:26,655 --> 00:22:31,935
To put him in a box and call it fascism,
is that it's so hard to keep track of

342
00:22:31,935 --> 00:22:35,550
all the things he's doing that doesn't
forget today what he did yesterday,

343
00:22:35,550 --> 00:22:41,294
doesn't then that makes it chaotic
or postmodern or some sort of new

344
00:22:41,294 --> 00:22:43,245
ontology or new way of doing things.

345
00:22:43,245 --> 00:22:45,735
Obviously it's bound out with the
digital revolution, but there's

346
00:22:45,735 --> 00:22:47,115
nothing fascist about that.

347
00:22:47,745 --> 00:22:50,955
Well, I think the term fascism,
which is I think what we're,

348
00:22:51,345 --> 00:22:54,075
what we're arguing about, um.

349
00:22:54,690 --> 00:22:59,550
The term fascism first helps people
understand the larger picture of what

350
00:22:59,550 --> 00:23:02,820
he's doing, and second, to some extent,
I think it will have predictive power.

351
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:10,020
What, what his administration has been
doing in Minneapolis is not something you

352
00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:17,310
do if you're interested in improving your
popularity ratings in a democracy, I mean.

353
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:22,500
We see that because their popularity
is tanking for that very reason they're

354
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:24,570
even losing Republicans over it.

355
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,120
Talking the way Stephen Miller talked
at Charlie Kirk's memorial service.

356
00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:38,010
Saying of in in, in the same place
where Charlie Kirk's widow forgave

357
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:41,340
the assassin, an extraordinary
act of Christian forgiveness.

358
00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:44,610
Trump got up there and
said, I hate my enemies.

359
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:46,650
And Stephen Miller said of.

360
00:23:46,965 --> 00:23:50,534
Left that whole half of the
country, you are nothing.

361
00:23:51,375 --> 00:23:52,754
You are wickedness.

362
00:23:53,235 --> 00:23:56,715
You don't do that to expand
your coalition and win votes.

363
00:23:57,074 --> 00:24:00,615
And I think the explanation for the
reason they're doing these things

364
00:24:00,615 --> 00:24:04,605
is that they look at the world the
way fascists do, which is an all or

365
00:24:04,605 --> 00:24:07,034
nothing battle between good and evil.

366
00:24:07,765 --> 00:24:11,845
In which you are the side of
a revolutionary force that's

367
00:24:11,845 --> 00:24:14,275
going to purify society.

368
00:24:14,695 --> 00:24:19,135
Get rid of the bad insiders, the
traitors who are trying to undermine

369
00:24:19,135 --> 00:24:25,285
it, consolidate power, vilify,
and dehumanize your opponents.

370
00:24:26,845 --> 00:24:28,255
You mentioned in.

371
00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:34,260
Your argument, one of the 18, uh,
arguments you make is alternative facts.

372
00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:35,880
You've written extensively about it.

373
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,360
You even have a book, the Constitution
of Knowledge, which is an excellent,

374
00:24:40,260 --> 00:24:45,060
uh, an an excellent analysis of
this alternative facts, uh, um,

375
00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:47,160
reality, if that's the right word.

376
00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:49,920
You quote Orwell and a rent.

377
00:24:50,895 --> 00:24:55,274
But a rent wrote a book, not about
fascism, but about totalitarianism in

378
00:24:55,274 --> 00:25:00,254
which she covered both the communists
or the Stalinists at least, and the

379
00:25:00,254 --> 00:25:06,794
Nazis might, again, I know I'm might
be being a little pedantic here or.

380
00:25:07,755 --> 00:25:12,675
Medieval in distinguishing these words,
but might totalitarian be a better

381
00:25:12,675 --> 00:25:18,675
word, a rents word than fascist, which
Orwell didn't like and a rent was

382
00:25:18,675 --> 00:25:23,625
ambivalent about, even though she herself
was a refugee from Fascist German.

383
00:25:23,805 --> 00:25:24,195
Yes.

384
00:25:24,195 --> 00:25:27,615
Well, you know, fascism, as we've said,
is such a poorly defined term that

385
00:25:27,615 --> 00:25:29,655
it's, its hard for anyone to talk about.

386
00:25:29,655 --> 00:25:29,925
You're the

387
00:25:30,170 --> 00:25:31,010
one who, who, who has this.

388
00:25:31,595 --> 00:25:33,515
Essay called, yes, it's fascism.

389
00:25:33,515 --> 00:25:33,935
So,

390
00:25:34,325 --> 00:25:35,255
yes, that's right.

391
00:25:35,255 --> 00:25:38,795
And then the way I go about that is
not a crisp one sentence definition,

392
00:25:38,795 --> 00:25:41,525
it's a whole bunch of attributes,
but I acknowledge it's fuzzy.

393
00:25:42,275 --> 00:25:47,015
Um, so yes, you ask a,
a, a, a smart question.

394
00:25:47,225 --> 00:25:49,475
Um, why not totalitarianism?

395
00:25:49,505 --> 00:25:53,945
And I think it's for the very
reason I just totalitarians.

396
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:59,040
Take control of the entire society,
or at least they try to and

397
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,480
they succeed from top to bottom.

398
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,419
I think maybe Trump, this is
something I don't think I would've

399
00:26:03,419 --> 00:26:06,750
said a year ago when we were
talking about Patrimonial Andrew.

400
00:26:07,290 --> 00:26:10,560
I think back then I would've said, Trump
does not have those kinds of ambitions.

401
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,169
I would've said he's, you
know, he wants to get rich.

402
00:26:13,169 --> 00:26:14,625
He wants his family to get rich.

403
00:26:14,790 --> 00:26:18,929
He wants to show he can dominate the
government and be the godfather, and

404
00:26:18,929 --> 00:26:23,820
those things are all true, but I. I
think he would've said that he is not

405
00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:28,020
someone who wants to, for example,
dominate our cultural institutions.

406
00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:33,150
Um, well, I've, I've had to have
even some second thoughts about that.

407
00:26:33,270 --> 00:26:37,800
You know, one, his name is going up
on the Kennedy Center, for example,

408
00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:42,885
and when he wants to build a triumphal
arch, uh, larger than anything except

409
00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:46,830
I guess the Washington Monument, you
know, you could laugh at these things

410
00:26:46,830 --> 00:26:48,660
and say he's just a vain old man.

411
00:26:49,575 --> 00:26:52,275
These do start to have
some of those overtones.

412
00:26:52,485 --> 00:26:54,465
I think, as I said, he will fail.

413
00:26:54,615 --> 00:26:57,855
He will not be able to take over
the levers, all the levers of power

414
00:26:57,855 --> 00:27:01,395
in our society, and thus history
will say he was not a totalitarian,

415
00:27:01,725 --> 00:27:03,435
whatever he might have wanted to be.

416
00:27:06,165 --> 00:27:10,305
There's another argument, another way of
looking at it that suggests that all this.

417
00:27:10,635 --> 00:27:18,195
Quote, unquote fascism or this, uh,
absurd language is a, an attempt by Trump

418
00:27:18,195 --> 00:27:20,955
and his people to change the subject.

419
00:27:20,955 --> 00:27:24,615
He always seems to be at his most
absurd during a political crisis.

420
00:27:24,615 --> 00:27:25,455
That was an excellent piece.

421
00:27:25,455 --> 00:27:28,455
I'm not sure if you saw it in the
Wall Street Journal Over the weekend,

422
00:27:29,355 --> 00:27:31,305
one generation runs the country.

423
00:27:31,305 --> 00:27:34,425
The ne the next cashed in on crypto.

424
00:27:34,425 --> 00:27:37,815
It's by, uh, two Wall
Street Journal reporters.

425
00:27:38,445 --> 00:27:41,175
Uh, Angus Barrick and, and Elliot Brown.

426
00:27:41,175 --> 00:27:45,825
I actually wanna get them on the
show, which explains how much money,

427
00:27:46,754 --> 00:27:51,014
uh, the Trump inner circle, the
families of Trump and some of his

428
00:27:51,014 --> 00:27:53,085
associates have made out of crypto.

429
00:27:53,085 --> 00:27:54,945
Could one make the argument, Jon?

430
00:27:55,905 --> 00:27:59,715
Maybe a Marxist would make the
argument, or certainly someone

431
00:27:59,715 --> 00:28:00,840
who focused on economics.

432
00:28:02,205 --> 00:28:06,195
Uh, that all this quote unquote
fascism was just a smoke

433
00:28:06,195 --> 00:28:08,475
screen to loot the country.

434
00:28:09,585 --> 00:28:14,145
Well, he's, he's, he's certainly
doing a pretty good job of, uh,

435
00:28:14,145 --> 00:28:15,945
of gathering, gathering the loot,

436
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,055
a a and the loot.

437
00:28:17,055 --> 00:28:21,735
Andy is so much more meaningful
for him as this real estate guy

438
00:28:21,735 --> 00:28:23,355
with an obsession with wealth.

439
00:28:23,415 --> 00:28:24,735
Than, than any, you know,

440
00:28:24,735 --> 00:28:27,645
that's, that's the very thing
that I've come to question Andrew.

441
00:28:27,675 --> 00:28:31,004
I was there six months ago, I thought,
you know, he'll, he'll make himself and

442
00:28:31,004 --> 00:28:35,805
his family rich and he'll be incompetent
and corrupt and, and then we'll pro

443
00:28:35,865 --> 00:28:39,405
and he'll, he'll stack some important
institutions and some people will die of

444
00:28:39,405 --> 00:28:40,995
measles, but then we'll be done with them.

445
00:28:41,805 --> 00:28:45,585
And as I said, what's forced him,
what's forced me to question that is

446
00:28:45,585 --> 00:28:49,845
the number of things he's, he's done
and that his administration have done,

447
00:28:50,355 --> 00:28:55,365
which don't make sense if you just
want to be, you know, a standard sort

448
00:28:55,365 --> 00:28:59,625
of looting, crooked politician because
they make him so much less popular.

449
00:28:59,625 --> 00:29:01,425
The things you do if you're an ideolog.

450
00:29:02,024 --> 00:29:05,504
And if what you're doing is you think
you've got four years or maybe only

451
00:29:05,504 --> 00:29:09,794
two years, if you think the house
might flip in, which you need to do

452
00:29:09,794 --> 00:29:14,685
as much as you possibly can to alter
this social contract in America so

453
00:29:14,685 --> 00:29:20,925
that this becomes a country where US
citizens get pumped full of bullets

454
00:29:20,925 --> 00:29:26,745
on the street while they're lying face
down and have been disarmed and there's.

455
00:29:27,645 --> 00:29:29,895
No investigation and the
government denied it happened.

456
00:29:30,165 --> 00:29:31,485
I'm exaggerating slightly.

457
00:29:31,485 --> 00:29:36,585
They now say they'll investigate, but,
but they, they're not doing that to become

458
00:29:36,585 --> 00:29:41,205
popular from which I reason they must
be doing it because they think that's

459
00:29:41,205 --> 00:29:43,635
how the social contract should work.

460
00:29:45,165 --> 00:29:47,145
They have a degree of popularity.

461
00:29:47,145 --> 00:29:48,465
You, you note in the piece.

462
00:29:48,465 --> 00:29:48,880
I think this is.

463
00:29:49,695 --> 00:29:53,985
Quite right that you point out that
there are differences between Trumpism

464
00:29:53,985 --> 00:29:56,715
and MAGA and classical European fascism.

465
00:29:57,435 --> 00:30:01,725
Uh, you note that mass rall and
public rituals, for example,

466
00:30:01,905 --> 00:30:03,889
don't exist in in the Trump page.

467
00:30:04,675 --> 00:30:12,115
What's replacing them, uh, the Internets
hyper-masculinity, misogyny and co-option

468
00:30:12,115 --> 00:30:14,365
of Christianity, which are quite fascist.

469
00:30:14,755 --> 00:30:17,485
What, where do we see the replacement?

470
00:30:17,485 --> 00:30:23,845
And I'm curious, I dunno the answer
to this, um, because, uh, um,

471
00:30:23,905 --> 00:30:28,735
mass rallies and public rituals
were central to both Mussolini

472
00:30:28,735 --> 00:30:31,375
and Hitler's versions of fascism.

473
00:30:31,405 --> 00:30:33,115
Is this on the internet?

474
00:30:33,870 --> 00:30:34,950
I would guess it is.

475
00:30:35,010 --> 00:30:35,400
Yeah.

476
00:30:36,390 --> 00:30:41,610
I, I would guess that the Internet's now
a much cheaper and faster way to do that.

477
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,040
You know, Trump did try to stage
a military parade, and I think

478
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,880
he probably imagined himself at
the top of a grandstand with,

479
00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:55,830
with, um, people marching by and
saluting him instead of what he got.

480
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,710
But I take your, I take your main
point and my guess it's just a guess.

481
00:31:02,115 --> 00:31:03,135
That's really all it is.

482
00:31:03,135 --> 00:31:07,755
It's a conjecture, is that social
media is just a much better way

483
00:31:07,755 --> 00:31:11,565
to, to build your audience, to feed
the message to the audience, to

484
00:31:11,565 --> 00:31:14,025
demand solidarity from the audience.

485
00:31:14,025 --> 00:31:16,125
You can do all those things
online quickly and cheaply.

486
00:31:16,125 --> 00:31:19,755
He's, he's a master at
that, however old he may be.

487
00:31:20,595 --> 00:31:23,595
Um, I don't know about very stable.

488
00:31:23,985 --> 00:31:25,695
He said he is a very stable genius.

489
00:31:25,695 --> 00:31:29,115
I don't know about stable, but, but
he's, he's some kind of genius, isn't he?

490
00:31:29,115 --> 00:31:30,530
When it comes to the use of those media?

491
00:31:33,810 --> 00:31:38,655
Marks famously wrote in his, and I
think it was in in response to the the

492
00:31:39,090 --> 00:31:43,350
Paris Commune, that history repeats
itself twice first as tragedy, then as

493
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:49,860
fast, and that seems to be something
that somehow captures Trump in terms

494
00:31:49,890 --> 00:31:52,020
of fascism, if indeed you are right.

495
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:55,560
I mean, the first version of fascism was.

496
00:31:56,235 --> 00:31:59,745
Truly tragic in the terrible
death and suffering that the

497
00:31:59,745 --> 00:32:02,085
Nazis brought to the world.

498
00:32:02,655 --> 00:32:07,065
Uh, but there is something
farcical about Trump, if you're

499
00:32:07,065 --> 00:32:08,595
right, that he is a fascist.

500
00:32:08,985 --> 00:32:11,205
It's a farcical fascism.

501
00:32:11,565 --> 00:32:14,805
And in that essay, um, by Marx.

502
00:32:16,455 --> 00:32:21,195
He writes about Napoleon ii,
trying to be the uncle, trying

503
00:32:21,195 --> 00:32:22,784
to be Napoleon Bonaparte.

504
00:32:23,565 --> 00:32:29,804
Um, so this seems to be something just
ludicrous about this attempt, if you are

505
00:32:29,804 --> 00:32:33,075
right to reinvent or reproduce fascism.

506
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:38,955
You mean because Trump himself
is so disorganized and, and

507
00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:40,560
strange because he's so uncon.

508
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:41,700
I, I mean, maybe you're right.

509
00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:45,000
Maybe in his heart if he has
a heart, he's a fascist, maybe

510
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,710
believes some of the things he says.

511
00:32:47,490 --> 00:32:48,960
But as you note, he's been.

512
00:32:49,620 --> 00:32:50,250
A failure.

513
00:32:50,250 --> 00:32:54,420
You, you, you correctly say in,
in your essay that, uh, whilst

514
00:32:54,420 --> 00:32:57,540
he might be a fascist president,
America isn't a fascist country.

515
00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:01,800
And if anything, I think it's less
of a fascist country in February,

516
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,980
2026 than it was in January, 2025.

517
00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:11,190
So this is a, a farcical chapter
in American history, Jon, isn't it?

518
00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:13,290
I don't know yet.

519
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,860
I see this period as, um, I don't know
if you remember high school physics

520
00:33:19,860 --> 00:33:24,090
and the idea of potential energy, and
they'd show you a diagram of a ball.

521
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:24,600
A, we didn't

522
00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:26,160
study science in England,

523
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:29,575
they show you physics.

524
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,890
A picture of, of a ball balanced on
top of a hill or a sombrero shaped

525
00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:40,650
curve and the potential energy is
it, it could, it could fall quickly.

526
00:33:41,054 --> 00:33:44,625
In either of two directions and you
can't tell which one it might fall in.

527
00:33:44,625 --> 00:33:52,455
Maybe one difference between us, Andrew,
is that however wacky Trump can seem,

528
00:33:53,895 --> 00:33:59,325
there is potential here to do very
long-term damage to our institutions.

529
00:33:59,325 --> 00:34:07,274
Just to take one example, the, uh,
new form of ice that this has taken.

530
00:34:07,949 --> 00:34:09,989
This is, this is now in law.

531
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:14,370
This is an agency that has already more
than doubled its size and will increase it

532
00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:19,650
further, is already, I believe, the 15th
largest military force in the world that

533
00:34:19,650 --> 00:34:25,020
is not accountable as traditional police
are to ordinary limits of jurisdiction

534
00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:27,540
that has been told that it has impunity.

535
00:34:28,275 --> 00:34:33,585
This organization will be probably around
for a long time to come, and those people

536
00:34:33,585 --> 00:34:37,304
now who are being trained and recruited
to run it will be around for a long time.

537
00:34:37,995 --> 00:34:41,594
I talked to a person who used to work
in the Homeland Security Department

538
00:34:41,594 --> 00:34:47,355
for trumpet in, in the first term, and
she's worried sick about this because

539
00:34:47,355 --> 00:34:51,404
she said, this is going to be a problem
for presidents for some time to come.

540
00:34:51,404 --> 00:34:54,134
You can't disband it, but
what do you do with it?

541
00:34:55,275 --> 00:34:59,955
So the answer is, um, I have
reluctantly come to take.

542
00:34:59,955 --> 00:35:01,965
What's happening now is, is very serious.

543
00:35:01,965 --> 00:35:05,715
If you, if you push me to the wall, I'm
gonna say at the end of the day, we'll

544
00:35:05,715 --> 00:35:08,745
still be a liberal democracy in 2029.

545
00:35:08,924 --> 00:35:14,355
And someone like JD Vance or even
Tucker Carlson probably cannot carry

546
00:35:14,355 --> 00:35:16,455
on the way Trump has carried on.

547
00:35:17,355 --> 00:35:18,915
But I'm not, I'm no longer.

548
00:35:19,635 --> 00:35:21,825
All that confident in, in my prediction.

549
00:35:23,535 --> 00:35:26,085
Let's end by going back to history.

550
00:35:26,085 --> 00:35:31,575
As I said, for me, fascism, I mean
obviously it's a, a tragic period

551
00:35:31,575 --> 00:35:34,185
and all the rest of it, um, but it.

552
00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:39,345
It speaks about a moment in history
after the first World War and a

553
00:35:39,345 --> 00:35:41,535
fundamental crisis of capitalism.

554
00:35:42,315 --> 00:35:44,265
How are we gonna remember this period?

555
00:35:44,265 --> 00:35:46,305
You talked a little bit about Orban.

556
00:35:46,365 --> 00:35:50,654
We see the appearance of one
kind of Trumpism or MAGA style

557
00:35:50,654 --> 00:35:54,435
nationalism elsewhere in the
world from Russia, perhaps even

558
00:35:54,435 --> 00:35:56,355
China, Hungary, Italy, and so on.

559
00:35:57,375 --> 00:36:02,205
How are we going to remember this
period, Jon, in terms of its triggers?

560
00:36:02,205 --> 00:36:06,855
Are we gonna remember it as a crisis
of capitalism, a crisis of technology?

561
00:36:06,855 --> 00:36:08,535
We don't have the first World war.

562
00:36:09,825 --> 00:36:15,015
So what is the great trauma of
the 2020s that has generated this?

563
00:36:15,795 --> 00:36:20,055
Well, we were chatting before we
started the program that that's

564
00:36:21,015 --> 00:36:22,545
such a big important subject.

565
00:36:22,545 --> 00:36:26,415
Maybe the subject of, of my next
book, we are, we're in this age.

566
00:36:26,415 --> 00:36:29,625
You can explain it better than I,
because you understand the technology.

567
00:36:29,625 --> 00:36:32,654
I'm convinced this is Frank
Fukuyama, many other people.

568
00:36:32,654 --> 00:36:34,035
A lot of what we're seeing is.

569
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:39,540
Is driven by technological changes
that have reduced people's faith in

570
00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:43,950
institution and, and increased, you
know, used algorithms to, to excite them.

571
00:36:44,490 --> 00:36:48,359
We're seeing a global backsliding,
not just in the US so we

572
00:36:48,359 --> 00:36:49,710
know it can't just be Trump.

573
00:36:49,950 --> 00:36:52,589
We're seeing global backsliding
from liberal democracy.

574
00:36:52,589 --> 00:36:54,810
We're seeing electorates,
which all over the world.

575
00:36:54,810 --> 00:36:56,730
Again, this isn't the US alone.

576
00:36:56,730 --> 00:37:02,460
It's not just Trump that are in
a state of constant rebellion.

577
00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:07,040
Against whoever's in office, they seem
to be almost impossible to please.

578
00:37:07,940 --> 00:37:15,560
Um, this, this is a period that I have
never lived anything through a period when

579
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:22,850
so many people, in so many places were so
unhappy with the governments that were in

580
00:37:22,850 --> 00:37:28,700
power and were willing to turn to so many
alternatives that you and I think probably

581
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:30,290
would've said, would not have been viable.

582
00:37:30,930 --> 00:37:34,140
Even 10 or 15 years ago,
and I can't explain that.

583
00:37:34,890 --> 00:37:37,830
Um, and not all of it
by any means is fascism.

584
00:37:37,890 --> 00:37:40,830
I'm certainly, certainly
not making that claim.

585
00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:44,190
It's everything from higher
prices to global mass migration

586
00:37:44,190 --> 00:37:45,840
to the decline of Christianity.

587
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,485
The subject of my last book, a lot of
stuff is going on there in this article.

588
00:37:50,730 --> 00:37:55,170
I just wanna say something simple, which
is if you look at the stuff Trump is doing

589
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,710
and you put it together in a big box.

590
00:38:00,045 --> 00:38:04,755
You either need to call it fascism
or you need to invent a new word

591
00:38:05,535 --> 00:38:07,185
with more or less the same meaning.

592
00:38:09,015 --> 00:38:11,235
Yeah, I agree with that Final statement.

593
00:38:11,235 --> 00:38:14,625
We need to invent a new word with
more or less, but I would say it's

594
00:38:14,625 --> 00:38:15,950
the less rather than the more.

595
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,720
Let's end up with Orwell who, who
understood this as much as anyone,

596
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:26,430
and as I said, his wonderful I essay
politics in the English language, uh,

597
00:38:26,430 --> 00:38:29,370
suggested that when you have problems
with language, you have problems with

598
00:38:29,370 --> 00:38:31,920
politics, and they go intimately together.

599
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:38,700
What is writing this and the response Jon
taught you about the relationship between.

600
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,230
Language, our languaging, the
English language, or that could

601
00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:44,880
be any language in politics.

602
00:38:49,260 --> 00:38:50,220
It taught me.

603
00:38:52,110 --> 00:38:54,150
Maybe this isn't a direct answer.

604
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:55,560
We'll see what comes outta my mouth.

605
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:02,100
I, one of the things that I
picked up from Orwell, including

606
00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:05,010
the S essay you mentioned, is
the importance of naming things.

607
00:39:06,615 --> 00:39:12,254
Orwell is someone who does
not want us to euphemized.

608
00:39:12,254 --> 00:39:13,035
Is that a word?

609
00:39:14,234 --> 00:39:14,654
Yeah.

610
00:39:14,714 --> 00:39:15,585
Well, we know what you mean.

611
00:39:15,585 --> 00:39:16,754
Create euphemisms.

612
00:39:16,875 --> 00:39:17,475
Yes.

613
00:39:17,504 --> 00:39:19,785
He says the hardest thing.

614
00:39:19,785 --> 00:39:21,615
I paraphrase again, you'll know the quote.

615
00:39:21,615 --> 00:39:27,404
The hardest thing to see is often
what's in front of one's nose and.

616
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:35,610
This was an effort to name what I thought
and think is in front of our nose.

617
00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:38,280
That's the whole exercise.

618
00:39:39,150 --> 00:39:46,260
Um, and I guess I'm not sure if that's
responsive to the specific question

619
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:50,970
you asked, but it's how I think about
what I'm trying at least to do here.

620
00:39:52,799 --> 00:39:57,779
So what we're trying to do is put words
to describe what's in front of our nose,

621
00:39:57,779 --> 00:40:01,140
although we're not always sure, but Jon
Roush is always ahead of everybody else.

622
00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:04,830
His new essay in the Atlantic
is a essential reading.

623
00:40:04,830 --> 00:40:06,089
Yes, it's fascism.

624
00:40:06,089 --> 00:40:06,779
Brave man.

625
00:40:06,779 --> 00:40:11,069
I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I
agree in part, I'm not sure he entirely

626
00:40:11,069 --> 00:40:13,229
agrees, but he certainly agrees in part.

627
00:40:13,229 --> 00:40:17,459
Jon, as always, pleasure,
honor, keep your important work.

628
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:17,924
You are.

629
00:40:18,735 --> 00:40:22,845
One of the loyal members of the
Opposition, and we go where you go.

630
00:40:22,845 --> 00:40:23,835
Thank you so much

631
00:40:24,105 --> 00:40:26,235
and a loyal member of your audience.

632
00:40:29,565 --> 00:40:30,915
Hi, this is Andrew again.

633
00:40:30,915 --> 00:40:33,405
Thank you so much for
listening or watching the show.

634
00:40:34,155 --> 00:40:36,615
Uh, if you enjoyed it, please subscribe.

635
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:41,115
We're on Substack, YouTube,
apple, Spotify, all the platforms.

636
00:40:41,745 --> 00:40:46,575
Uh, and I'd be very curious as to your
comments as well on what you think of

637
00:40:46,575 --> 00:40:51,134
the show, how it can be improved, and
the kinds of guests that you would

638
00:40:51,134 --> 00:40:54,555
enjoy hearing or listening to in future.

639
00:40:54,645 --> 00:40:55,544
Thank you again.