"We all love Thomas Paine. We just wish we liked him." — Jonathan Turley
Jonathan Turley's new book asks a deceptively simple question: why did the American Revolution become the longest-running successful democracy while the French Revolution devoured itself? The answer, he argues, lies in Madison's "auxiliary precautions" — constitutional safeguards designed not to eliminate rage but to channel it. Turley draws a direct line from Robespierre to today's calls to pack the Supreme Court and abolish the Senate, warning that removing those precautions invites the same mobocracy that sent the Jacobins to the guillotine. But the real provocation comes in the book's second half: with AI and robotics threatening mass unemployment, America may soon face a "kept population" — citizens subsidized by the state who lose their vital relationship to productivity and self-governance. We discuss Thomas Paine (brilliant about humanity, clueless about humans), why rage itself isn't the enemy, and whether the republic built to handle the 18th century can survive the 21st.
About the Guest
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University Law School. A legal analyst for CBS, NBC, BBC, and Fox News over three decades, he is the author of The Indispensable Right (a bestseller) and the new Rage and the Republic: The Unfinished Story of the American Revolution.
Chapters:
00:01:14 The Uniqueness of the American Revolution
00:03:53 Paine vs. Madison on Democracy
00:05:54 Robespierre's Transformation
00:09:01 Thomas Paine: The Penman of the Revolution
00:11:46 Slavery and the Revolution's Contradictions
00:15:43 Franklin's Greatest Achievement
00:18:07 What Was Unique About American Rage
00:25:08 The "New Jacobins"
00:26:40 Rage on Both Sides
00:30:47 AI and the "Kept Population"
00:39:26 "Gynan" Jobs
00:45:00 Why the American Republic is Still the Best Model
References
Figures discussed:
Thomas Paine — arrived in America "barely alive," became the penman of the revolution in two years - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine
James Madison — designed the "auxiliary precautions" that prevented American democracy from devouring itself - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison
Benjamin Franklin — paid for Paine's passage to America, saw genius in "that heap of human wreckage" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
Maximilien Robespierre — began as an advocate for due process, ended declaring "terror is virtue" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre
Jean-Paul Marat — radical journalist, killed by Corday in his bathtub (he bathed constantly due to a skin disease) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Marat
Charlotte Corday — Republican who assassinated Marat; Robespierre and Danton watched her execution - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Corday
Georges Danton — joined the moderate Girondin wing; executed by the revolution he helped create - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Danton
Art:
The Death of Marat (1793) — Jacques-Louis David's painting of Marat's assassination; David was himself a Jacobin - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Marat
Historical events:
The Battle of Fort Wilson (1779) — Philadelphia mob attacked founder James Wilson's home; several killed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Wilson_Riot
The Reign of Terror (1793–94) — nearly all Jacobin leaders guillotined, including Danton and Robespierre - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
Books mentioned:
The Wealth of Nations (1776) — Adam Smith; embraced by the founders as "the perfect companion to their political theory" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations
The Federalist Papers (1787–88) — Hamilton, Madison, and Jay - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers
About Keen On America
Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and Silicon Valley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlantic wit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkers and writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly 2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.
Website: https://keenon.tv/
Substack: https://keenon.substack.com/
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@KeenOnShow
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keen-on-america/id1448694012
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4MvPXVxAI8u5LtMJIr4S1b