To Catch a Fascist: The Ethics of Unmasking the Radical Right

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Hello, my name is Andrew Keen.

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Welcome to Keen on America, the Daily Show
about everything that matters with the

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world's leading commentators and thinkers.

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Hello everybody.

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It is Wednesday, the 4th of February 20,
26, few days ago, and an old friend of

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the show, John Roush, had an influential
essay on the Atlantic in which he

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announced he used to be a fascism skeptic.

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And, uh, when it comes to the
Trump regime, at least he believes

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that yes, it is indeed fascism.

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So, uh, uh, Donald Trump is indeed.

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August Company of Adolf Hitler and Benito
Mussolini Elise, according to John.

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Uh, and I'm gonna try and get John back on
the show actually to talk more about it.

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Uh, yesterday an interesting new
book came out on the F word too.

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It's called to Catch a Fascist, uh,
the Fight to Expose the radical right.

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It's by my guest today, Christopher
Mathias uh, Chris, um, I'm

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assuming you're in the Roche camp,
although I'm guessing also that

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you were never much of a skeptic.

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Did you always believe
that Trump was a fascist?

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Yeah.

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You know, I think, um, I
think he certainly had those

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characteristics from the jump.

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Um, I think as a journalist, I
probably didn't use the term myself

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in a headline until 20, uh, 18, 20 19.

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Um, it was actually a very
specific, uh, scenario.

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I covered a Trump rally in Greenville,
North Carolina, where I saw.

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The president, uh, whip the crowd into a
frenzy, uh, over Ilhan Omar, and, uh, get

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the entire crowd to chant, send her back.

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Um, and, uh, I, I ended up writing an
article immediately afterwards called

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a Fascist Trump rally in Greenville.

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Uh, dur in which I, I kind of emailed
a bunch of different scholars of

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fascism to ask for their take.

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Um, and yeah, so I guess I've
been in the call using the f

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word camp for for a minute.

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So what, for you, I don't
want to turn this into a, a

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scholastic discussion of fascism.

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Sure.

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Everyone has different definitions, but
what for you distinguishes a fascist from.

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A conservative or just a reactionary?

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Yeah.

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You know, um.

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I guess it's, it's always a little
tricky 'cause um, the, the way I kind

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of define fascism in the book, and
it's kind of like my working definition

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obviously, um, but is kind of like a,
a right wing politics of domination

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that sit situates a particular subgroup
of people above a social hierarchy

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and then targets already marginalized
groups for expulsion and, and death.

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Um, all in this effort to kind of, you
know, quote, purify or cleanse a, a nation

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to restore it to some mythical, uh, past
of cultural and, and ethnic homogeneity.

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Um, and I think, you know.

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You could all, I think throughout, uh,
the history of conservatism in America,

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it's always, you know, danced around
the edges of explicit, uh, fascism.

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And, and I think, you know,
something I try to get at in the

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book is that, um, in a way, um.

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Fascism was in America before,
you know, we called it fascism.

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Um, Langston Hughes, uh, speaking at this
writer's conference in the 1930s famously

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said like, you don't need to tell, uh,
the black man in America about fascism.

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We've, we, we are familiar
with, uh, Nordic supremacy.

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Um, and its, and its, uh, trials.

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Um, so.

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I think when it comes to Trump and, and
more recently using the F word, um, I

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think he basically took kind of a lot
of maybe implicit or dog whistling,

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um, you know, racism, am bigotry and
just made it that much more explicit.

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Um, and I think just exhibited, um, a lot
of the characteristics that, um, I felt

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made him a fascist, and especially in the
second administration and like your, uh.

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Friend, friend of the show
wrote in the Atlantic.

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Um, I think the, the
evidence is just everywhere.

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Now.

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The original fascist, of course, Mussolini
made the term up fascism, uh, Hitler,

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they were at one point, at least in their
political careers, extremely popular.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, Trump seems to have
some degree of popularity.

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At least he won the last election.

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Uh, in your view, if
you believe that Trump.

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And his inner circle of fascists, does
that make people who voted for him or

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the majority of people who voted for
him, does that make them fascists too?

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You know, that's a, that's
an interesting question.

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I think, um, I would certainly
characterize MAGA at this point

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as a, as a fascist movement.

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Um, and I think, um, it is something
we should come to terms with.

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Um, you mean the like kind of explicit.

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Uh, racism not only in the last campaign,
but uh, of this current administration

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is just so blatant and over the top.

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Um, I, um, I, you know, whether or not.

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It's interesting the way we use the
word 'cause I don't think anyone in the

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Trump administration would necessarily
self-identify as a fascist, even

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though there was that hilarious moment

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with, uh, Zohran Mamdani in, uh,

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the White House when Trump said,
you know, call, call me a fascist.

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It's fine.

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Um, uh, but.

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You know, as for calling individual
Trump supporters, fascists.

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So I, I don't know.

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I mean, I think they're, I think
they're swept, they're mixed up

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in something fascist for sure.

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Um, you know, this is kind of a
distinction I make in the book, right?

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'cause the book is about anti-fascist
activists, um, who target, um.

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You know, what they see as fascist
groups, um, for, you know, confrontation,

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for, uh, espionage, for research,
for kind of unmasking members of,

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of fa of secretive fascist groups.

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Um, but you know, there.

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They're identifying these people, they're
unmasking these people and calling them

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fascists, calling them Nazis, but they're
not, you know, going to Trump rallies and

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I identifying Trump supporters as fascists
or, you know, doxing them, exposing them.

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Um, you know, they're kind of
targeting the worst of the worst.

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Um, so yeah, I don't know.

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I, I think it's an interest.

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Interesting question.

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I'm not sure if you given it,
it's an interesting question.

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I'm not sure if you fully answered it.

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Um,

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okay.

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What, what, what, what would, what
would be your, your take on that?

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Well, I mean, of the, I don't know,
however many million, 70, I don't

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know, 70, 80 million, a hundred million
peop Americans who voted for Trump.

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Mm-hmm.

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Of those who, who, I mean, what a number
of approximately 20, 30, 50% are fascists.

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I mean, it's an important

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question for better or worse.

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I mean, I, I, I know it's
a hard one to answer.

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Yeah.

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It's just, I, I mean, yeah, I don't know.

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It's, there's a lot to parse there, you
know, I mean, like, uh, in, um, during

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the civil rights era, um, or I mean, if
you go further back, I don't know, like

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during reconstruction in America, um.

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Like,

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could you arguably call?

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Um, I don't, I don't
know what I'm getting at.

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I just, I just think it's, it's,
it's a really hard thing to parse.

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Um, I think, uh, yes, I think
they're part of a fascist movement.

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I don't know, um, if I would
call them in particular.

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Each and every Trump
supporter are fascist.

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I mean, the reason I ask Chris
is because your book is about the

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fight to expose the radical, right?

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And in part, I guess it's a kind of an
exercise in, in doxing, uh, yeah, fascism.

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I mean, if there are 40 or 50 or 70 or
a hundred million in Americans who voted

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for Trump, should they all be exposed?

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Should there be some sort of,
sort of the, like the Vietnam.

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Uh, in Washington DC should there
be a big wall or should there

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eventually be a big wall somewhere
where these people are identified

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in terms of their support for Trump?

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Is that what you are arguing?

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And to catch a fascist, who's
to to determine who gets to

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be exposed and who doesn't?

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That's my question.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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That's not what the book
is arguing whatsoever.

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Um, that is, this is, have
you read the book, Andrew?

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Yes.

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I've looked at it.

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You've looked at it.

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Sure.

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Okay.

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So the book is, um, you know.

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Basically about anti-fascist group, this
kind of de antifa, you know, commonly

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the way we commonly call it, uh, the
kind of this decentralized underground

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network of anarchists and, and socialists
who, um, you know, don't trust.

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The state or law enforcement to combat,
um, fascists in their communities.

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Um, so they do the work themselves and
the large part of the work they're doing

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is exposing, you know, very explicit
neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

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These are members of groups like Identity
Europa and Patriot Front, and a lot of

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the Nazis that marched in Charlottesville.

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Um, and they are doing the work to uncover
the identities of, of these people,

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um, and, you know, often revealing them
to be, um, men in positions of power.

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Um, and the idea of that is to kind
of hold these people accountable is to

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say if you, for example, are, you know,
one of the stories, uh, is about a, uh,

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Nazi EMT who runs a, one of the most.

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Popular neo-Nazi podcast in the country
called The Daily Showa, the Showa, of

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course, being a, a word for the Holocaust.

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Um, and he is working as a
paramedic as an EMT in Virginia.

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Uh, on that podcast, he makes
explicit references and stories to

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treating black patients differently.

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Anti-fascists expose this and
becomes a, a story, and he.

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Gets fired.

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Um, there's another story, for
example, of a neo-Nazi, a member of

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a group called Identity Aropa, which
is very explicit about wanting to

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expel non-white people from America.

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Um, and.

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He, uh, is in Charlottesville.

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He's the security guard for Richard
Spencer, who's kind of the, um,

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you know, poster boy of the, of
the so-called alt-right in 2017.

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Um, and then he goes back to Massachusetts
afterwards that, um, and he goes

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back to his job as a police officer,
anti-fascist, figure out who he is.

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Uh, they publish a, a docs or
a story if you, if you will.

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Um, and he, you know, basically
resigns before he is fired.

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So.

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From this perspective, this type of
anti-fascist work is a form of community

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self-defense and accountability.

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And it's a way of kind of creating
a social cost for being, you

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know, part of a, a fascist group.

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It's, it's kind of a way of saying
like, yeah, you can join those

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groups if you want to, but, um, you
know, you don't get to wear a mask.

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We're gonna figure out who you are
and, and hold you accountable for it.

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The book, um.

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As you say is sympathetic to that
aspect of the, the Antifa movement.

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Um, and you, you know, in an interesting
piece in the, in the nation that not,

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not all liberals are, are comfortable
with that work of exposing people.

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What rights then do these
individuals have when it comes to

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privacy, when should and shouldn't?

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Antifa have the right
to expose these people.

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Uh, you talked about, we've
done shows on Charlottesville.

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Should everyone who showed up for
that rally in Charlottesville,

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should they be exposed?

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Should they lose their jobs?

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Should they be humiliated?

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Um, yeah, it's an interesting question.

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I think, um, you know, one of the.

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Groups I profile in the book,
um, is is a group of anti-fascist

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researchers called Ignite The Right.

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Um, ignite the Right is dedicated
to doing exactly what you just

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said is to identifying and exposing
everyone that was in Charlottesville.

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Um, and you know, I
was in Charlottesville.

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I covered it as a reporter.

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Um, and.

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You know, I do not see, um, a way in
which you attended that rally without,

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um, or participated in that rally
without being an explicit neo-Nazi.

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Um, it was one of the most horrible
things I've ever witnessed or experienced.

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Um, you know, I interviewed
people, uh, after the car attack.

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I witnessed the beating of Deandre Harris.

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Um, and yes, I think if
you attended that as, um.

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A member of, like a participant
in Unite the Right Rally.

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Yeah.

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You, you probably deserve
some accountability.

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Does that mean that there isn't
a, a like room or path for

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00:13:42,270 --> 00:13:43,710
forgiveness or understanding?

225
00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:44,400
No, of course not.

226
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,930
There, there's definitely
an avenue for that.

227
00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:50,190
Um, I think one of the things I,
you know, talk about in the book,

228
00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:55,200
um, is you know, this kind of, uh.

229
00:13:55,905 --> 00:13:59,625
Anti-fascists will often, you know,
kind of do this thing called amnesty

230
00:13:59,625 --> 00:14:03,375
where, you know, they, if, if you're
a Nazi and you're participating in

231
00:14:03,375 --> 00:14:06,555
something, but you've left the movement
behind you, but you, you know, you might

232
00:14:06,555 --> 00:14:10,905
be exposed, you'll often go to these
anti-fascists and be like, listen, I left

233
00:14:10,905 --> 00:14:12,435
these movement, this movement behind me.

234
00:14:12,435 --> 00:14:15,675
And, and anti-fascists will be like,
okay, yeah, well we won't do anything.

235
00:14:15,675 --> 00:14:18,105
You know, like, you know,
we, we'll be honest though.

236
00:14:18,105 --> 00:14:19,995
Like if we see you mixed
up in this again, we might.

237
00:14:20,415 --> 00:14:21,285
You know, post something.

238
00:14:21,824 --> 00:14:25,964
Um, so it's, I think it's just a
method of, of, um, accountability.

239
00:14:28,185 --> 00:14:31,035
What about the accountability
though of, of Antifa?

240
00:14:31,035 --> 00:14:34,515
I mean, who, who is to determine
who's on these boards and who is

241
00:14:34,515 --> 00:14:38,034
exposing who it sounds to me, or
to some liberals at least, it might

242
00:14:38,504 --> 00:14:41,354
sound as if, as a degree of moral.

243
00:14:41,685 --> 00:14:46,574
Equivalency here of one group of radicals
exposing another group for being evil.

244
00:14:46,665 --> 00:14:53,564
I, I'm guessing that right wing radicals
would probably have panels or groups

245
00:14:53,564 --> 00:14:55,304
or committers doing the same thing.

246
00:14:56,804 --> 00:14:57,704
Yeah, no, totally.

247
00:14:57,704 --> 00:15:02,804
And, and um, you know, I think a lot
of people will make that equivalency.

248
00:15:02,834 --> 00:15:04,849
Um, uh, you know.

249
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:10,319
There is no board or leadership
or headquarters for Antifa de

250
00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:13,530
despite what, um, the Trump
administration, you know, might say.

251
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,389
Um, it is typically, you know,
decisions are arrived at locally and,

252
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:20,879
and democratically and tediously.

253
00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:21,660
Um.

254
00:15:22,734 --> 00:15:26,244
And, you know, that's not to say
they get it right every time.

255
00:15:26,274 --> 00:15:34,224
Um, uh, I do think that there is a
big, I, you know, I, I will personally

256
00:15:34,224 --> 00:15:38,305
argue that there's not an equivalency
between kind of right wing doxing and

257
00:15:38,365 --> 00:15:40,194
the, the doxing I describe in the book.

258
00:15:40,284 --> 00:15:45,385
Um, you know, I think, um, you know.

259
00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:50,010
I am in support of unmasking and
identifying, uh, fascists in, in

260
00:15:50,010 --> 00:15:54,300
my community and, um, would rather
it not go the other way around.

261
00:15:55,290 --> 00:16:00,510
You wrote an interesting piece, uh,
last week in The Guardian about Antifa

262
00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:08,129
unmasking, uh, not just neo-Nazis,
but now members of, uh, ice, uh,

263
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,589
the group of course, who very much
in the news, in involved in there.

264
00:16:14,474 --> 00:16:18,464
Uh, in their violence on
the streets of Minneapolis.

265
00:16:18,915 --> 00:16:25,574
Um, sh lots of debate about whether or not
ICE agents or people who are working for

266
00:16:25,574 --> 00:16:28,425
ICE should have the right to anonymity.

267
00:16:28,814 --> 00:16:33,584
What do you argue, uh, Chris in
the book on catching a fascist

268
00:16:33,944 --> 00:16:37,869
in terms of ice in your view is
everyone who works for ICE a fascist.

269
00:16:39,974 --> 00:16:43,724
You see, this is a, this is a kind
of a, a distinction in terms that I

270
00:16:43,724 --> 00:16:48,345
think I don't, you know, get caught up
in, like, I'm not identify, like I, I

271
00:16:48,345 --> 00:16:53,444
think it's worthy, uh, completely to
identify the people in ICE right now.

272
00:16:53,444 --> 00:16:56,355
I think what ICE is doing right
now is reprehensible, and I think

273
00:16:56,355 --> 00:17:01,230
it's, um, part of a. Pretty explicit
project of ethnic cleansing.

274
00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:05,520
And I think it, you know, in, in my
personal opinion, I think it meets every

275
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,190
def definition of a fascist project.

276
00:17:08,610 --> 00:17:09,089
Um.

277
00:17:09,464 --> 00:17:17,355
Now does, um, each individual,
am I, you know, does each ice

278
00:17:17,355 --> 00:17:19,515
agent, are they a fascist?

279
00:17:19,964 --> 00:17:22,994
Um, you know, I don't know that
they think of it consciously in

280
00:17:22,994 --> 00:17:26,504
that way or self-identify that way,
but what I would say is that they

281
00:17:26,504 --> 00:17:28,395
are involved in a fascist project.

282
00:17:28,815 --> 00:17:33,975
Um, and I also think that they are,
you know, kind of publicly funded.

283
00:17:34,575 --> 00:17:34,905
Um.

284
00:17:36,245 --> 00:17:40,564
Uh, you know, employees of, of
the state, they're like kind

285
00:17:40,564 --> 00:17:41,705
of public officials in a way.

286
00:17:42,215 --> 00:17:45,274
Um, and that typically, you know,
police aren't masked and they

287
00:17:45,274 --> 00:17:46,715
have to identify themselves.

288
00:17:47,165 --> 00:17:52,534
Um, and so I think it's a very kind
of scary escalation that the people

289
00:17:52,534 --> 00:17:55,024
doing this, um, are wearing masks.

290
00:17:55,024 --> 00:17:57,905
And I think, I think the reason,
you know, uh, thank you for

291
00:17:57,905 --> 00:17:59,014
bringing up the Guardian article.

292
00:17:59,014 --> 00:18:00,455
You know, I think, um.

293
00:18:01,365 --> 00:18:05,685
Someone I interview in that
says that the um reason.

294
00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:11,790
Um, that ice wear wears masks
is 'cause they know what they're

295
00:18:11,790 --> 00:18:16,680
doing is, is unpopular or, you
know, that it, um, might be wrong.

296
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,220
Um, and I, and I think there's
some, some truth to that.

297
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:26,640
Um, and you know, I also just say I
think it's really interesting, and

298
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,790
this is something I try to, uh, bring
up in the book, is that, you know,

299
00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:33,210
throughout the history of American.

300
00:18:33,705 --> 00:18:37,635
White supremacy, um, and
specifically masked white supremacy.

301
00:18:38,145 --> 00:18:43,005
Um, you know, you wear a mask in
hopes of creating a world in which

302
00:18:43,005 --> 00:18:44,130
you won't need a mask at all.

303
00:18:44,804 --> 00:18:49,695
Um, the, the first Klan wears a mask to
kind of terrorize black people in the

304
00:18:49,695 --> 00:18:54,855
south and to overthrow reconstruction
to destroy the gains that, uh, recently

305
00:18:54,855 --> 00:18:56,985
freed black people have, have gained.

306
00:18:57,495 --> 00:19:02,774
When, when reconstruction is abandoned,
um, you know, the Klan is isn't really

307
00:19:02,774 --> 00:19:04,185
needed anymore and it kind of disbands.

308
00:19:04,185 --> 00:19:05,475
That's part of the reason it disbands.

309
00:19:06,014 --> 00:19:07,524
Um, they kind of, you know.

310
00:19:08,175 --> 00:19:11,325
Trade the anonymity of the hood
for the anonymity of the lynch mob.

311
00:19:11,835 --> 00:19:19,635
Um, and I think it's, uh, important and to
consider the world, a world in which ICE

312
00:19:19,635 --> 00:19:26,445
agents, um, are comfortable carrying out
what they're doing, uh, without a mask.

313
00:19:27,045 --> 00:19:30,850
Um, and um, yeah, I think.

314
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:37,350
That's the reason as the, um, the Guardian
article you brought up, uh, you know,

315
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:41,610
mentions is that anti-fascists have,
uh, you know, kind of changed their

316
00:19:41,610 --> 00:19:46,200
targets and are identifying ice agents
in Minneapolis and, and elsewhere.

317
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:54,570
The article also, uh, quotes, uh, people
who argue that you need to identify all.

318
00:19:55,469 --> 00:20:02,879
Ice and, and DHS officers, that's the
homeland security, uh, department.

319
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:05,610
Those are many thousands of people.

320
00:20:05,610 --> 00:20:06,959
Chris isn't, aren't there?

321
00:20:06,959 --> 00:20:09,479
I mean, how, how is, firstly,
how's that gonna work?

322
00:20:09,479 --> 00:20:10,260
And secondly,

323
00:20:11,820 --> 00:20:13,709
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's targeting.

324
00:20:13,709 --> 00:20:14,334
I, I think.

325
00:20:15,195 --> 00:20:16,185
I think you might be misreading.

326
00:20:16,185 --> 00:20:19,995
I think it's targeting border patrol
agents active in the missions in

327
00:20:19,995 --> 00:20:23,205
Minneapolis on the streets to kind
of abduct people off the street.

328
00:20:23,625 --> 00:20:25,455
There are many thousands of those.

329
00:20:25,665 --> 00:20:28,575
Uh, I mean they're not just on the street,
they're on the streets of Los Angeles.

330
00:20:28,575 --> 00:20:30,315
They're on the border,
there are in Minneapolis.

331
00:20:30,315 --> 00:20:31,515
Who knows where else they are.

332
00:20:31,875 --> 00:20:32,295
There are,

333
00:20:32,295 --> 00:20:32,475
mm-hmm.

334
00:20:33,375 --> 00:20:35,445
Many thousands of these agents.

335
00:20:35,445 --> 00:20:37,785
Are you suggesting in the book that.

336
00:20:38,745 --> 00:20:43,785
Uh, leaving aside the F word that
they should all be somehow exposed,

337
00:20:43,785 --> 00:20:47,355
that everyone should know what
they're doing and shamed, essentially.

338
00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:53,745
Um, so the, the book was written before
the current kind of escalation of, of ice.

339
00:20:54,075 --> 00:20:55,545
Um, so I don't make an
argument about that,

340
00:20:55,695 --> 00:20:59,895
although I'm guessing that this
doesn't necessarily surprise you what's

341
00:20:59,895 --> 00:21:01,665
happened on the streets of Minneapolis.

342
00:21:02,295 --> 00:21:03,135
No, not at all.

343
00:21:03,135 --> 00:21:07,035
I mean, I think it is,
um, exactly what, um.

344
00:21:07,949 --> 00:21:10,709
MAGA and, and Trump have promised to do.

345
00:21:10,709 --> 00:21:16,050
I mean, if you're going to promise
to Massport, uh, millions and

346
00:21:16,050 --> 00:21:19,110
millions and millions of people, of
our neighbors and friends and and

347
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:23,280
loved ones, it's gonna look like this
and it's gonna be, um, a spectacle.

348
00:21:23,429 --> 00:21:25,560
Um, you know, I think, uh.

349
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:30,290
Steven Miller, who I think a lot
of reporting suggests this is kind

350
00:21:30,290 --> 00:21:32,090
of his brainchild and, and project.

351
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:32,360
Mm-hmm.

352
00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:38,810
Um, you know, he is, um, steeped
in, in a kind of explicit

353
00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:40,790
white supremacist literature.

354
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,760
Um, and, you know, he was, his emails
were leaked, um, to the Southern

355
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,690
Property Law Center years back, and
they showed him just kind of swimming

356
00:21:50,690 --> 00:21:54,800
in these, uh, you know, waters
online of, um, you know, kind of.

357
00:21:55,290 --> 00:22:00,660
Explicit great replacement talk of,
of the, the term Remi, which is really

358
00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:02,190
just a euphemism for ethnic cleansing.

359
00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:06,510
Um, and you know, of ado of, you
know, kind of promoting books like

360
00:22:06,510 --> 00:22:10,050
Camp of Saints, which of course is
like, you know, this really kind

361
00:22:10,050 --> 00:22:12,600
of racist, dystopian, uh, novel.

362
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:13,710
Um, so.

363
00:22:15,435 --> 00:22:16,935
Um, no.

364
00:22:16,935 --> 00:22:18,945
I mean, sadly I think like there's, um,

365
00:22:19,365 --> 00:22:21,345
no, and I take your point on, on Miller.

366
00:22:21,345 --> 00:22:24,975
I mean, I wouldn't argue with you
on Miller, although everybody knows

367
00:22:24,975 --> 00:22:27,045
who he is, he doesn't wear a mask.

368
00:22:27,525 --> 00:22:27,825
Right.

369
00:22:27,825 --> 00:22:31,545
My question was about the tens of
thousands of, of ice agents who

370
00:22:31,545 --> 00:22:34,245
presumably, some of them at least,
are looking for work and their.

371
00:22:35,345 --> 00:22:39,335
Doing that, they're working for the
state in, in the way in which many

372
00:22:39,335 --> 00:22:40,925
Americans have done historically.

373
00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:45,575
Would you distinguish, I mean, is everyone
who works for ice, should they all be

374
00:22:45,575 --> 00:22:50,435
exposed or is there only ice agents on
the streets or those who are violent?

375
00:22:50,435 --> 00:22:51,395
How are we gonna know?

376
00:22:52,925 --> 00:22:54,690
Well, I mean, that's
what, what's happening.

377
00:22:54,890 --> 00:22:59,045
The, the current kind of grassroots
effort to identify ice, you know,

378
00:22:59,075 --> 00:23:00,995
they're not identifying like.

379
00:23:01,665 --> 00:23:06,015
Administrative people or, you know, I
think there's actually, um, there's a site

380
00:23:06,015 --> 00:23:10,305
called isis, which isn't like an Antifa
project per se, but they, they make this

381
00:23:10,305 --> 00:23:13,185
distinction, I think, and I think this is
what you're getting at, which is that like

382
00:23:13,395 --> 00:23:15,465
they're not going to identify the people.

383
00:23:15,885 --> 00:23:20,505
Working the daycare at, you know, DHS,
uh, taking care of government, employees,

384
00:23:20,505 --> 00:23:24,525
kids, um, like they're, and they're
not gonna, you know, docs or unmask

385
00:23:24,645 --> 00:23:29,745
the everyday employees necessarily of
DHSI think they are so far, at least

386
00:23:29,745 --> 00:23:33,015
what they've done and, and what I've
detailed in the article is that they are.

387
00:23:33,889 --> 00:23:38,300
Identifying people that have
taken place in, or taken part in a

388
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:44,300
particularly bad or, or brutal bits
of, uh, violence or kind of especially,

389
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:47,780
um, egregious, uh, you know, um.

390
00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:50,850
Abductions or deportations, whatever,
whatever you wanna call them.

391
00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:55,050
I think, you know, one of the officers
that's identified in, in my article

392
00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:58,710
is someone who pepper sprayed a
protestor at point blank range.

393
00:23:59,070 --> 00:24:04,500
Um, one of the, some of the other
people that they've identified were the

394
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:10,470
agents seen, uh, bringing an elderly
man, uh, out of his house, shirtless

395
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:13,920
and like zero degree temperature as
his grandchild with out the window.

396
00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:15,855
Um, you know, I think they are.

397
00:24:16,455 --> 00:24:18,254
Targeting, uh, those people.

398
00:24:18,345 --> 00:24:24,014
Um, you know, I don't really see
them nor, nor would they necessarily

399
00:24:24,014 --> 00:24:27,465
have the resources at this
point to identify, you know, the

400
00:24:27,465 --> 00:24:29,715
thousands of employees of of DHS.

401
00:24:30,014 --> 00:24:36,225
I think they are creating accountability
for, you know, the people committing

402
00:24:37,125 --> 00:24:38,745
kind of the most egregious acts.

403
00:24:40,695 --> 00:24:44,879
And, and how would you
respond to, uh, an ice agent?

404
00:24:44,879 --> 00:24:46,860
I don't suppose one would
appear on this show.

405
00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:48,960
Probably not show their
face certainly, but mm-hmm.

406
00:24:49,409 --> 00:24:54,510
Who would simply say, well, we're
just doing our job and we we're trying

407
00:24:54,510 --> 00:25:00,030
to, uh, uh, obey the rules of the
state when it comes to immigration.

408
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:00,990
Sure.

409
00:25:01,470 --> 00:25:01,980
Um.

410
00:25:03,014 --> 00:25:06,044
Yeah, I mean that it, it sounds
almost trite to say, but you know,

411
00:25:06,105 --> 00:25:08,594
we're just doing our job sounds a
lot like we're just following orders.

412
00:25:09,135 --> 00:25:15,824
Um, you know, which of course, um,
you know, I think in moments like

413
00:25:15,824 --> 00:25:19,935
this, it's, it's important to say
that, you know, there are some

414
00:25:19,935 --> 00:25:21,405
orders that shouldn't be followed.

415
00:25:21,435 --> 00:25:26,925
Um, and what is happening, you know,
particular, particularly in Minneapolis,

416
00:25:27,405 --> 00:25:31,695
um, you know, from all accounts of,
from the people living there is.

417
00:25:32,385 --> 00:25:34,155
A straight up occupation.

418
00:25:34,635 --> 00:25:43,725
Um, I think there's been reports, um,
uh, I think maybe in EO or elsewhere, uh,

419
00:25:43,755 --> 00:25:49,635
kind of detailing, um, that morale is not
necessarily high within ICE at the moment.

420
00:25:50,265 --> 00:25:56,055
Um, and I think they see that this huge
community uprising in response, um.

421
00:25:56,625 --> 00:26:01,065
You know, they, they know how unpopular
they are and that they might have to

422
00:26:01,065 --> 00:26:04,485
live with the shame of what they're a
part of for a while, um, you know, we're,

423
00:26:04,485 --> 00:26:12,045
we're seeing the popularity of, of ice
and this project of these deportations

424
00:26:12,045 --> 00:26:13,545
just kind of plummeted in the polls.

425
00:26:13,965 --> 00:26:17,325
And a, a phrase like abolish ice, which,
you know, year, a few years ago, I

426
00:26:17,325 --> 00:26:19,125
think was, felt like pretty radical.

427
00:26:19,545 --> 00:26:25,020
Um, is reaching an all time record high,
um, even 20% of Republicans support.

428
00:26:25,965 --> 00:26:29,865
Um, abolishing ICE at this point,
or support that phrase, I believe.

429
00:26:30,375 --> 00:26:33,315
Um, so, um,

430
00:26:35,355 --> 00:26:36,195
yeah, I'm, I'm sorry.

431
00:26:36,195 --> 00:26:38,835
I, I, I forgot your
initial question, but, um,

432
00:26:38,835 --> 00:26:40,455
no, I, I think you answered it.

433
00:26:40,514 --> 00:26:40,965
Um,

434
00:26:41,025 --> 00:26:41,264
yeah.

435
00:26:42,105 --> 00:26:48,014
So for you or perhaps for the anti
Antifa group, and, and maybe this is,

436
00:26:48,105 --> 00:26:52,935
this is a compelling argument, shame
is, is, is a powerful political tool.

437
00:26:53,565 --> 00:26:53,925
Yeah.

438
00:26:54,705 --> 00:26:55,005
Yeah.

439
00:26:55,005 --> 00:26:56,655
No, I, I think, I think that's really it.

440
00:26:56,655 --> 00:27:00,165
And, um, I'm, I'm glad you put it
that way 'cause I've been thinking

441
00:27:00,405 --> 00:27:03,705
a lot about it this week because
Tom Homan, of course, the, um,

442
00:27:04,185 --> 00:27:05,595
the, the head of ice at the moment.

443
00:27:05,865 --> 00:27:06,045
Yeah.

444
00:27:06,105 --> 00:27:10,665
Um, he, uh, recently came out with
a statement where he, he tried

445
00:27:10,665 --> 00:27:12,165
to kind of flip my book on, its.

446
00:27:12,615 --> 00:27:13,935
Uh, on its side, right?

447
00:27:13,935 --> 00:27:17,865
He said like, you know, we are, we're
filming the people that are standing

448
00:27:17,865 --> 00:27:21,435
up against ICE and we're gonna create
a database and they're gonna be shamed

449
00:27:21,435 --> 00:27:22,695
and they're gonna lose their jobs.

450
00:27:23,055 --> 00:27:26,805
So like, there is like, you know, in
a way, I think, and I'm so glad you

451
00:27:26,805 --> 00:27:28,065
phrased the question that way, Andrew.

452
00:27:28,125 --> 00:27:33,555
Um, there is like, kind of this battle
over, um, shame and, and, and what

453
00:27:33,555 --> 00:27:34,785
we're supposed to be ashamed of.

454
00:27:35,265 --> 00:27:37,155
Um, and I think, um.

455
00:27:38,115 --> 00:27:40,514
It's just a, it's a push
and, and, and a pull.

456
00:27:40,514 --> 00:27:43,215
It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a real fight.

457
00:27:44,054 --> 00:27:48,014
So what becomes, as I said, you've been
quite critical, I think of conventional

458
00:27:48,014 --> 00:27:49,754
liberals when it comes to this stuff.

459
00:27:49,784 --> 00:27:54,554
What becomes of our right to
privacy is that only people who

460
00:27:56,054 --> 00:27:59,355
are moderates who have a right
to privacy or people on the left.

461
00:28:01,274 --> 00:28:04,754
You know, I think the,
the argument for, um.

462
00:28:06,854 --> 00:28:09,675
Unmasking, kind of straight up.

463
00:28:09,675 --> 00:28:14,324
Fascist is just a form of
community self-defense.

464
00:28:14,324 --> 00:28:19,155
It's to know that the people,
there are people in your community

465
00:28:19,155 --> 00:28:23,445
that are explicitly calling for
violence online, that are, that

466
00:28:23,445 --> 00:28:26,445
are liable, uh, to commit violence.

467
00:28:26,804 --> 00:28:30,915
Um, you know, one of the
stories I tell in the book, um.

468
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,550
And I will, you know, admit, like
this is not like a, from the kind of

469
00:28:35,550 --> 00:28:41,190
militant, anti-fascist perspective,
um, you know, they have a, uh, a

470
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:45,780
different approach to concepts of,
of freedom of speech than, than your

471
00:28:45,930 --> 00:28:48,000
kind of more moderate liberal, um.

472
00:28:48,915 --> 00:28:52,455
You know, one of the stories I tell
in the book is that an anti-fascist

473
00:28:52,455 --> 00:28:57,765
spy goes into, um, the planning server
for the Unite the Right Rally in

474
00:28:57,765 --> 00:29:03,075
Charlottesville, where all these Nazi
groups are planning, um, the event and

475
00:29:03,825 --> 00:29:10,665
this spy collects reams of data, of memes
and messages, just kind of evidence of

476
00:29:10,965 --> 00:29:13,095
these Nazis murderous intent for that day.

477
00:29:13,635 --> 00:29:13,965
Um.

478
00:29:14,685 --> 00:29:19,155
He gives them to local anti-fascists
in Charlottesville, who then give

479
00:29:19,155 --> 00:29:24,794
them to the local city government,
uh, pleading with, um, you know, the

480
00:29:24,794 --> 00:29:29,835
mayor, the, the council to revoke these
Nazis permit, uh, for their rally.

481
00:29:30,315 --> 00:29:32,895
Um, you know, the officials
decide not to do that.

482
00:29:32,985 --> 00:29:38,085
Um, uh, and of course, you know, what
happens in Charlottesville happens,

483
00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:43,455
um, and I think from like the militant,
anti-fascist perspective, like.

484
00:29:44,745 --> 00:29:49,365
You know, these fascists always
pose an inherent threat when

485
00:29:49,365 --> 00:29:50,415
they're allowed to organize.

486
00:29:50,865 --> 00:29:58,095
Um, and, um, it's a fight to,
um, you know, to stop their

487
00:29:58,095 --> 00:29:59,085
violence from happening.

488
00:29:59,445 --> 00:30:04,395
And, and part of that work is unmasking
them and, uh, knowing who they are,

489
00:30:04,755 --> 00:30:07,095
um, you know, in the pre-internet era.

490
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:11,040
This anti-fascist work in America
in the eighties and nineties, often

491
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:16,200
involved activists like digging through
the dumpsters of like neo-Nazis houses

492
00:30:16,530 --> 00:30:20,070
and fi, and finding discarded mail
and finding their real names and then

493
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:23,820
posting, you know, meet your local
Nazi posters on telephone poles.

494
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,520
Um, so, but back to your
original question, like who

495
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,670
is deserving of privacy?

496
00:30:32,730 --> 00:30:35,970
Um, you know, I think we are.

497
00:30:36,419 --> 00:30:37,649
All deserving of privacy.

498
00:30:37,649 --> 00:30:45,120
But I think if you are actively, you
know, agitating as part of a movement

499
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:51,750
to expel a good portion of this country
for not being white, um, then it's a

500
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:56,250
matter of kind of actual community self
defense to know who those people are.

501
00:30:58,409 --> 00:31:00,330
I love the title of the book.

502
00:31:00,330 --> 00:31:00,870
Um.

503
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,540
Uh, yeah, it reminds me, of course,
uh, your book is called, uh, to Catch

504
00:31:06,540 --> 00:31:14,340
a Fascist, uh, Hitchcock's 1952,
uh, or 1955 movie to Catch a Thief

505
00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:15,960
with Carrie Grant and Grace Kelly.

506
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,860
Very different,

507
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:18,480
which, which I, which I
still haven't watched.

508
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:19,050
I I should

509
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,399
Oh, you haven't watched it yet.

510
00:31:21,930 --> 00:31:23,790
It's, it's, it's very different.

511
00:31:23,790 --> 00:31:24,389
Are you?

512
00:31:24,690 --> 00:31:27,780
And it, and of course it's a
fun movie and a romantic movie.

513
00:31:27,780 --> 00:31:29,730
Are you optimistic now given?

514
00:31:30,165 --> 00:31:32,325
What happened on the
streets of Minneapolis?

515
00:31:32,325 --> 00:31:34,485
Do you feel that the worst is over, Chris?

516
00:31:36,585 --> 00:31:38,145
Yeah, you know, I, I really don't know.

517
00:31:38,145 --> 00:31:43,215
I think, um, we've had so many moments
like this where, um, you know, 'cause

518
00:31:43,215 --> 00:31:46,635
we did in a sense see Trump like retreat
a little bit in Minneapolis, right?

519
00:31:46,635 --> 00:31:51,075
Like he dispatched with Bovino,
you know, kind of the guy in charge

520
00:31:51,075 --> 00:31:53,115
that who really dressed like a Nazi.

521
00:31:53,595 --> 00:31:55,815
Um, but, um.

522
00:31:57,254 --> 00:32:01,545
Uh, you know, we also know that abductions
and these kind of deportations are

523
00:32:01,545 --> 00:32:06,705
taking place all over right now, still
in places like Los Angeles and even

524
00:32:06,705 --> 00:32:10,815
in New York, um, where I am and, um.

525
00:32:12,764 --> 00:32:16,455
All I can say is that, um,
what we saw in Minneapolis, I

526
00:32:16,455 --> 00:32:18,074
personally found very heartening.

527
00:32:18,584 --> 00:32:24,314
Um, it was like an organic grassroots
response, uh, by the people there to say

528
00:32:24,314 --> 00:32:26,205
that, you know, this is not acceptable.

529
00:32:26,534 --> 00:32:32,475
Um, and it reminded me a lot
of the kind of grassroots.

530
00:32:33,465 --> 00:32:37,814
Militant anti-fascist response to the
wave of fascist groups and Nazi groups

531
00:32:37,814 --> 00:32:42,314
that marched on the streets of America in
2017 and 2018, where you are confronting

532
00:32:42,314 --> 00:32:45,675
these people in the streets, you're
following them, you're monitoring them,

533
00:32:45,675 --> 00:32:50,804
you're identifying them, you're pressuring
venues and hotels, not to host them.

534
00:32:51,254 --> 00:32:53,500
Um, you know, it's just
creating a social cost.

535
00:32:53,594 --> 00:32:55,455
And we, we've seen that.

536
00:32:55,810 --> 00:32:57,550
All over Minneapolis.

537
00:32:57,879 --> 00:33:02,980
And I think it's working and I think
it's providing a, a model of, uh,

538
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,280
resistance, um, for across the country.

539
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,240
So in, in that way, yes,
I, um, feel optimistic.

540
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,650
I think, you know, one of
the, uh, mantras, uh, that.

541
00:33:15,975 --> 00:33:18,795
A couple mantras or axioms that
you hear in anti-fascist circles

542
00:33:18,795 --> 00:33:21,435
are, uh, we protect, we protect us.

543
00:33:21,825 --> 00:33:25,755
Um, and I think Minneapolis showed
that, you know, they weren't

544
00:33:25,755 --> 00:33:26,955
relying on the law enforcement.

545
00:33:26,955 --> 00:33:30,465
They weren't relying on the Democratic
party or their local government to

546
00:33:30,495 --> 00:33:34,545
defend, uh, themselves against ice and
defend their neighbors against ice.

547
00:33:34,545 --> 00:33:38,265
They, they realized that it was up to
them to defend their, their neighbors.

548
00:33:38,655 --> 00:33:41,745
Um, you know, and then the other
expression you hear a lot, um.

549
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,639
Maybe, you know, I just have Woody
Gut three on the Mind, but is, uh, you

550
00:33:45,639 --> 00:33:47,290
know, all you fascist bound to lose.

551
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:56,139
Um, and I do think, um, you
know, that fascism is ultimately

552
00:33:56,139 --> 00:33:57,790
a self-destructive ideology.

553
00:33:57,790 --> 00:34:02,409
'cause it constantly needs to manufacture
new targets and new subgroups to,

554
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:04,090
to scapegoat and, and eliminate.

555
00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:07,300
Um, and until eventually, you
know, there's no one left, it's

556
00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:08,590
kind of like eating its own.

557
00:34:09,429 --> 00:34:10,150
I, I do this.

558
00:34:11,969 --> 00:34:14,879
Fascist moment that this fascist
movement is bound to lose.

559
00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:19,889
It's just kind of what's important right
now is to stop this movement from doing

560
00:34:19,889 --> 00:34:21,455
as much destruction as as possible.

561
00:34:23,295 --> 00:34:24,824
So you seem to be saying two things.

562
00:34:24,824 --> 00:34:28,065
On the one hand, it's gonna eat itself,
so we could just leave it alone.

563
00:34:28,065 --> 00:34:31,455
On the other hand, you seem, and, and
correct me if I'm wrong, to be suggesting

564
00:34:31,455 --> 00:34:36,495
that in, in some ways these people, or
at least their views should be illegal.

565
00:34:36,614 --> 00:34:37,094
So

566
00:34:37,989 --> 00:34:39,795
I'm, I'm, I'm not saying
they should be illegal.

567
00:34:39,795 --> 00:34:41,984
Um, I'm saying that there
should be consequences.

568
00:34:41,984 --> 00:34:46,754
I think one of the analogies
that I draw in the book is,

569
00:34:46,815 --> 00:34:48,554
um, let's say you're in a bar.

570
00:34:48,955 --> 00:34:55,495
And a, um, guy comes in and
starts, uh, shouting racial slurs,

571
00:34:55,645 --> 00:34:57,384
maybe throws up a, a Nazi salute.

572
00:34:57,924 --> 00:35:02,634
Um, you, there's a recognition
that that guy poses a threat, that

573
00:35:02,634 --> 00:35:05,995
he's liable to do something and
you're gonna ask him to leave.

574
00:35:06,564 --> 00:35:10,435
Um, if he doesn't leave, uh, you might
for, you might force him to leave.

575
00:35:10,855 --> 00:35:11,995
Um, I think.

576
00:35:13,089 --> 00:35:16,245
I, I, I, I feel like your question's
kind of around freedom of speech.

577
00:35:16,424 --> 00:35:18,105
Am am I correct, Andrew or?

578
00:35:18,189 --> 00:35:18,410
Yes.

579
00:35:18,975 --> 00:35:19,274
Yes.

580
00:35:19,274 --> 00:35:19,605
Yeah, yeah.

581
00:35:19,634 --> 00:35:19,845
Okay.

582
00:35:19,845 --> 00:35:20,055
Yeah.

583
00:35:20,055 --> 00:35:24,555
So I think, um, there's the distinction
I think maybe I'm trying to draw here

584
00:35:24,555 --> 00:35:29,234
is not like freedom of speech doesn't
mean freedom from consequences.

585
00:35:29,625 --> 00:35:34,665
Um, you know, it like if you
say racist shit in a bar, you're

586
00:35:34,694 --> 00:35:36,285
liable to get, get punched.

587
00:35:36,674 --> 00:35:38,129
Um, and you know, I.

588
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:42,225
I don't know if that's a, a bad thing.

589
00:35:44,355 --> 00:35:49,005
Uh, tomorrow we've got, uh, lawyer,
uh, Andrew Guthrie Ferguson.

590
00:35:49,005 --> 00:35:52,215
He has a new book out called Your
Data Will Be Used Against You.

591
00:35:52,215 --> 00:35:57,105
Are you at all concerned, Chris,
that, that the, the tactics that

592
00:35:57,105 --> 00:36:01,815
you are supporting in this new book
to catch a fascist will be used by

593
00:36:01,815 --> 00:36:06,945
the right against guys like yourself
or certainly members of Antifa?

594
00:36:08,745 --> 00:36:09,375
Uh, sure.

595
00:36:09,375 --> 00:36:09,585
Yeah.

596
00:36:09,585 --> 00:36:14,415
I mean the, um, it's, uh, I mean,
it's, it is essentially, well, I think

597
00:36:14,415 --> 00:36:17,745
what you're touching on is that, and
what I describe in my book is that it

598
00:36:17,745 --> 00:36:21,555
is essentially an underground war of
intelligence and counterintelligence.

599
00:36:21,585 --> 00:36:27,075
It's kind of an informal, uh,
uh, intelligence agencies that a

600
00:36:27,075 --> 00:36:28,155
war with each other, if you will.

601
00:36:28,425 --> 00:36:31,365
There, there, there definitely are far
right efforts and right-wing efforts

602
00:36:31,365 --> 00:36:33,915
to identify anti-fascist activists.

603
00:36:34,305 --> 00:36:34,815
Um.

604
00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:37,740
And, you know, there are
websites to that effect.

605
00:36:37,799 --> 00:36:44,160
Um, you know, we also saw during the,
um, uh, uprisings and the protests

606
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,000
against, uh, the genocide in Gaza, that
there were websites like Canary Mission

607
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:52,830
that were identifying, um, uh, you
know, members of those demonstrations.

608
00:36:53,220 --> 00:36:56,279
Uh, there's a website called
Antifa Watch, uh, which claims

609
00:36:56,279 --> 00:36:58,830
to identify members of Antifa.

610
00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:03,420
Um, I personally have been
doxed, um, and, you know.

611
00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:08,040
By doxed, I mean, um, you know,
when I, when I say dox in the

612
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,730
anti-fascist sense, I mean the kind
of the digital equivalent of ripping

613
00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:13,110
the white hood off of a Klansman.

614
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:18,600
Um, when I say I personally was doxed,
it means, you know, my, um, phone number

615
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,740
and address and that of my families was
posted online and we all received death

616
00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:24,330
threats and I had to file police reports.

617
00:37:24,810 --> 00:37:29,490
Um, so that is definitely
already happening.

618
00:37:29,790 --> 00:37:30,090
Um.

619
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:35,190
I will say that I think the
left, um, is much better and much

620
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:36,960
more careful at it as a project.

621
00:37:37,290 --> 00:37:40,380
Um, the right often mis identifies
people all the time or is very

622
00:37:40,380 --> 00:37:42,960
sloppy, um, sloppy with it.

623
00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:48,060
Um, and you know, I think when
the right does it, they often do

624
00:37:48,060 --> 00:37:53,220
it as a way of inviting, um, real
harassment and, and violence.

625
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:54,240
Um.

626
00:37:55,170 --> 00:37:58,740
Uh, whereas I think, you know, a lot
of the anti-fascist docs as I described

627
00:37:58,740 --> 00:38:02,070
in my book, um, you know, sometimes
they might post a Nazis address,

628
00:38:02,070 --> 00:38:03,630
but most of the time they're not.

629
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,360
Um, so yeah.

630
00:38:06,450 --> 00:38:10,500
Um, it's, it's, it's definitely
kind of already happening.

631
00:38:10,530 --> 00:38:11,400
It's, it's a bit of a battle.

632
00:38:12,825 --> 00:38:16,635
It certainly is a bit of a battle,
uh, interesting conversation.

633
00:38:16,635 --> 00:38:17,805
The book is out.

634
00:38:17,805 --> 00:38:20,415
It was out yesterday to catch a fascist.

635
00:38:20,925 --> 00:38:22,725
The fight to expose the radical.

636
00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:23,085
Right.

637
00:38:23,145 --> 00:38:24,015
Very interesting.

638
00:38:24,015 --> 00:38:27,465
And I'm gonna bring the book up when I
talk to, uh, Andrew Ferguson tomorrow.

639
00:38:27,465 --> 00:38:32,355
Congratulations, Chris on the new
book and continue with your good work.

640
00:38:32,355 --> 00:38:33,375
Thank you so much.

641
00:38:33,675 --> 00:38:34,695
Thanks so much for having me, Andrew.

642
00:38:34,695 --> 00:38:35,295
This was a pleasure.