Rage in the American Republic

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Hello, my name is Andrew Keen.

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Welcome to Keen on America, the Daily
Interview Show about the United States.

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Hello everybody.

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It's Monday.

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February the eighth, 2026.

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GW Law School seems to be monopolizing
the Keenon America Show these days.

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Few days ago we had Andrew
Guthrie Ferguson, a professor at

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GW talking about his new book.

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Your Data will be used against you,
a kind of libertarian defense against

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the leviathans of Silicon Valley,
and now we have another GW professor,

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Jonathan Turley, who like Ferguson,
has a new book ad, it's called Rage

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in the Republic, the Unfinished
Story of the American Revolution.

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It's just out his, uh, last book.

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Many of you'll be familiar with.

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The Indispensable Ride was a best seller.

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Uh, expect this one will be two.

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Jonathan is joining us from his home.

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Uh, in the Washington DC area.

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Uh, Jonathan, would it be fair to
say that your new book, uh, Rage

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in the Republic, uh, focuses on the
uniqueness of the American Revolution,

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which of course we are celebrating
the 250th year anniversary this year?

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Well, first of all, Andrew, thank
you for having me on your program,

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and it does indeed look at what are
the factors and the personalities and

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events that came together to create
this unique republic 250 years ago.

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And that first half of the book looks
at two revolutions, the American and

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French revolutions, and actually follows
much of the journey of Thomas Payne,

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uh, who is one of two central figures
who played a role in both revolutions.

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The other being Lafayette.

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And the, the first half of the book
sort of tries to figure out why the

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American Revolution went on to become
the longest, uh, and most successful

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democracy, and the French Relu revolution
went on to become the reign of terror.

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And what, what the book suggests
is that the difference were these

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precautions that James Madison put
together, uh, in the constitution.

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You know, Thomas Payne was the righteous
rage of, uh, the American Revolution.

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It may have been the truest
revolutionary of the American

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Revolution, and it was James Madison
who was sort of the pious logic.

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You know, Payne knew what it would take.

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To move a people to revolution.

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And then Madison knew what it would
take to move a revolution to a republic.

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And it was the combination of those two
sort of mindsets and two, frankly, two

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geniuses that produced this republic.

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And then the second half of the book
looks forward as to whether that

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republic can survive in the 21st century.

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And it looks at everything from
the combination of robotics and ai.

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Which I go into some depth on, uh, and
the potential of a massive loss of jobs

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as well as global governance and the rise
of what I call the class of new Jacobins.

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Well, we'll get to that class of
new Jacobins in in a few minutes.

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Um, Jonathan, is your analysis
there, and it sounds to me as if your

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analysis of the American Revolution is.

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Somewhat burkey in this
one, two punch of pain.

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And then Madison, Madison forcing pain's,
anger, and righteousness to into law.

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You are a professor of law.

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I I, I Is that fair?

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Is, is your analysis of the uniqueness
of the American Revolution, Bian

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Burke, of course, being the greatest
of all critics of the French

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Revolution and particularly of Jacobin?

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Well, I go to some depth about the.

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Uh, the debate between Payne and Burke,
I'm known as a more of a Madisonian

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scholar, and the book certainly
embraces what Madison was arguing.

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What I find fascinating about Thomas
Payne, and he is the most interesting

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historical figure I've ever researched
or written about is that pain.

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Was a remarkable individual, a true
genius, but he did not agree with

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Madison's auxiliary precautions
as he called them, uh, because he

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believed more in direct democracy.

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And when he went to the French
Revolution, he pursued that with Jacobins.

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He wanted a unicameral legislature.

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Uh, he wanted to sort of strip away a
lot of those barriers for the public to

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express themselves through legislation.

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And it came damn near to killing
him that his pain came within

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24 hours of being guillotine.

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Uh, and it was just an accident
that he wasn't beheaded, but he came

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to realize that Madison was right.

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And what he was, what the, the
rightness of Madison was in the view

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that democracies devour themselves.

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Uh, that at the beginning of the book
starts by quoting a Frenchman from the

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Revolution, uh, who said that revolutions
like Saturn develop, devour their own.

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Yeah.

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And of course there's that famous
novel, the Gods must Have Their Blood.

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That's right.

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And pain Watch that happen.

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In France, uh, the Jacobins, all the
leadership of the Jacobins, except

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for a couple of notable exceptions,
all fell under what was called,

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uh, the Razor of the Republic.

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They all were devoured by the revolution.

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And of course, the razor was not just
metaphorical, it was the guillotine.

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I, I'm guessing.

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Um.

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Jonathan, the, the, uh, the bad guy
in, in your narrative, at least when

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it comes to France, is, is Robe spear?

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Does he speak for everything that
went wrong with the French Revolution?

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Well, I go into depth with robes.

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Pierre and I talk about him
in the second half as well.

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Who would tell you about
the new Jack of them?

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What has to be remembered is that
Rob Spear was a lawyer, and when

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he began, uh, he spoke about the
rights of man, about due process.

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Uh, if you had heard him and read
him in the early days, you would've

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thought he was an A CLU lawyer.

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And this,

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yeah.

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I'm guessing, uh, do you, do you get the
Rob Spear types in your classes at gw?

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I'm sure you shut them
up, Jonathan, don't you?

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Well, you know, the, the thing about
it is I, I not only talk about roast

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beer, but also figures like morat.

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Uh, journalists, uh, lawyers, professors,
aristocrats, uh, who began in the

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same way but were corrupted over
time to the point that Robe Pierre

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eventually said that terror is virtue.

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Uh, he came to totally embrace.

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The execution of those
that disagree with you.

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And the book talks about how this was
sort of a rousso revolution in that sense.

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The, the Jacob Ins loved Rousseau and his
idea of the general will, and this was

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another way of saying direct democracy,
that if you unleash the general will

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of the populace, that it can only
come to good because people are good.

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It was a very naive,

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yeah.

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And of course, Rousseau
invented the modern concept of.

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Authenticity and the self and all,
all the rest of, uh, that, um,

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were there any good guys in your.

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Analysis of the French Revolution.

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Dante, of course, comes to mind.

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Uh, who got the French
Revolution in France?

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Tocqueville, I'm guessing
from your point of

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view.

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Well, the top villain will definitely
have to go to Rose Pierre and

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Marat and Abe and a few others.

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But I, you know, downtown was no angel.

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Of course, he, he signed
off on the executions.

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Eventually he joined, um, the.

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Uh, which was the sort of moderate
Jacobin wing, but they had

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blood on their hands as well.

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And then ultimately, of
course, he was executed.

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It was an interesting, you know,
many of the good ones were of course,

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executed, uh, because they were good.

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Uh,

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the gods must have their blood, Jonathan,

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that's right.

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In your historical narrative.

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The way, uh, we, when, when I was
a. A student in England, the way

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we were brought up in terms of
our analysis of these comparative

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revolutions is we didn't begin with
the French or the American revolutions.

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We began with the glorious
English revolution.

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What's your analysis when it
comes to rage and the republic of.

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The Republican Revolution, or what
in part was a Republican revolution

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in England, the Cromwellian
Revolution, which of course was

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also manifested by a degree of rage.

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What was different from
the American Revolution?

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Well, this is a book about revolutions.

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I do talk about the English revolution.

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I. All revolutions require rage.

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All these nations are not just the progeny
of Revolution, uh, but the result of rage.

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That's what the Boston Tea Party
was after all, it was rage, and

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you have to move a country to rage.

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That's why Thomas Payne was so important.

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That's why he's called the
penant of the revolution.

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It's why he's so extraordinary.

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I mean, he arrived in this country,
barely alive after a voyage, had to

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be carried off a ship in Philadelphia.

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That was two years.

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Just two years before the Declaration
of Independence, in two years, he went

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from being a, an entire and complete
failure in everything he had ever done.

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Every job, every marriage he had to being
the penman of the American Revolution.

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But the American Revolution was the
first true enlightenment revolution.

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Um, not to downplay the
English, uh, rebellion.

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You don't consider it a revolution.

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You just, you call it
a rebellion, Jonathan.

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Well, I

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don't mean that king.

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No, I did, I didn't actually
mean much by the, the, the, uh,

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um, change in, in, in nouns.

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But the, uh, the American Revolution
was, was a direct outgrowth.

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Of enlightenment ideas.

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And the Declaration of Independence
is largely an enlightenment document.

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It actually doesn't talk about democracy.

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It talks about liberty.

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It never mentions democracy.

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And in that sense it was a fascination
for, for people around the world.

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Uh, you know, they talked about.

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These Americans, like they
were a brand new species.

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And it sort of goes when lock said
in the beginning, all was America.

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It was not just that this was an
untamed land, uh, it was this notion

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that this was a country that was
starting anew without the sort of

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calcified structures classes of Europe.

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And I talk in the book about a Frenchman
who wrote under the name, uh, farmer John.

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Who had a great line and a very
popular book in Europe, and he

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asked, what then is this America?

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And it was a very profound question.

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But then is this American?

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They, the, the, the, the Europeans
wanted to know, uh, how this

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could happen, why it happened.

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And actually the French modeled
originally the revolution on, on the

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United States, but then refused to
create those protections and precautions.

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Uh, they wanted the revolution,
but not what came with it.

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Jonathan.

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Um, what about the alternative
narrative of the American Revolution?

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I'm sure you are not
particularly keen on it.

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The idea of the appropriation of
indigenous land, the history of slavery

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in terms of the American Revolution.

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Are there contradictions,
especially when it comes to pain?

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Pain of course, was not an admirer of
slavery, perhaps even of capitalism.

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Um, what about.

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The alternative narratives,
do you just dismiss them?

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No, I don't.

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In fact, I talk about those, the
inherent contradictions are glaring.

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I actually talk about it also in terms
of why Thomas Payne was so unpopular.

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You know, he had the distinction of being.

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Pursuit for prosecutions in all
three nations where he claimed

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citizenship, uh, forced sedition.

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Uh, he was the ultimate contrarian.

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But there was more to that, as I say
in the book, that there's a reason why.

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People preferred figures like
Thomas Jefferson, the Thomas Payne

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Jefferson was tall and erudite.

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Uh, classically trained, well educated,
and a slave owner, Thomas Payne,

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was vehemently against slavery.

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And that, I think, contributed
to his being an out outlier.

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I mean, it was, so, there were others
that were against slavery, but it was

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this glaring contradiction that pain
himself did not have, which is why I

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think he's such a, a redeeming character.

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Um, even if he had very few friends,
you know, uh, I, I quote, uh,

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Benjamin Franklin's daughter is
saying it would've been better if he

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had died right after common Sense.

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And I note in the book,
she was one of his friends.

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So, you know, it, it, it's
an amazing thing about pain.

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He, he died, uh, virtually friendless,
of course penniless, which was the

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problem he had his entire life.

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But slavery is one of those big
issues that is looming here in terms

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of the contradictions, particularly
if you are an enlightenment.

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Revolution to deny those freedoms
to so many who were enslaved by you.

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And, and that book does talk about that.

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It's interesting you bring up Franklin.

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We've done a number of shows
on him, uh, over the years.

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Um, Franklin, of course, was the reverse.

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00:14:03,365 --> 00:14:06,455
Of pain in the sense that he
had many friends both in the

232
00:14:06,455 --> 00:14:08,255
United States and Europe.

233
00:14:08,675 --> 00:14:10,715
Is he your fourth man, Jonathan?

234
00:14:10,835 --> 00:14:14,465
We've got, uh, Madison, we've
got Jefferson, we've got pain.

235
00:14:14,465 --> 00:14:17,915
Who's the kind of, I don't know what
you'd call him, it sounds to me like

236
00:14:17,915 --> 00:14:22,145
a kind of anti-hero, simultaneously
hero and anti-hero in your narrative.

237
00:14:22,175 --> 00:14:23,285
What about Franklin?

238
00:14:24,215 --> 00:14:26,915
Well, pain is remarkably and delightfully.

239
00:14:28,035 --> 00:14:29,055
Complex.

240
00:14:29,145 --> 00:14:32,685
Uh, you know, I quote in the book, I'm
a film noir nut and I drive my children

241
00:14:32,685 --> 00:14:36,645
crazy 'cause I, I have to have something
playing in the background when I work.

242
00:14:37,005 --> 00:14:40,935
And it's always a black and white film
noir film, which, which probably scarred

243
00:14:40,935 --> 00:14:43,155
my children, uh, to, to a terrible, I just

244
00:14:43,155 --> 00:14:43,814
hope so.

245
00:14:43,995 --> 00:14:44,355
Yeah.

246
00:14:44,625 --> 00:14:48,645
And, uh, but the greatest line
ever uttered in any film noir.

247
00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:53,770
Was delivered by Fred Murray who turned
after finding out that the femme fatal

248
00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:58,210
had finally lied to him again, as
well as to her husband, uh, and she

249
00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:00,010
was incapable of telling the truth.

250
00:15:00,010 --> 00:15:05,710
He goes to the door, she begs him to stay,
and he turns and says, I love you so much.

251
00:15:05,710 --> 00:15:06,725
I only wish I liked you.

252
00:15:07,890 --> 00:15:11,160
And I think with Thomas Payne, for
those of us who have spent a lot

253
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,170
of time with him, uh, in, in these
histories, um, we all love him.

254
00:15:16,170 --> 00:15:17,400
We just wish we liked him.

255
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,420
He, he, he had this person was
hard to like, because in many ways

256
00:15:21,449 --> 00:15:25,439
he was brilliant about humanity,
but he was clueless about human.

257
00:15:26,145 --> 00:15:26,835
Uh, and

258
00:15:26,925 --> 00:15:30,975
the, the, the, the classic
conservative critique of leftist

259
00:15:30,975 --> 00:15:32,655
for people who are just listening.

260
00:15:32,655 --> 00:15:35,145
Jonathan is very formal fellow.

261
00:15:35,145 --> 00:15:41,235
He is dressed in a suit and ties a wannabe
Thomas Payne in you, uh, Jonathan, do you

262
00:15:41,235 --> 00:15:45,615
sometimes wake up in the middle of the
night and fantasize of being Thomas Payne?

263
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,290
I can't say I fantasize
being Thomas Payne.

264
00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:49,410
But

265
00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:52,530
What about your wife would you like,
would she like you to be Thomas Payne?

266
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,650
Oh, I don't think anyone would
wanna live with Thomas Payne.

267
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,240
You know, the interesting
you mentioned about George

268
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,490
be exciting though for a
few minutes, wouldn't it?

269
00:15:59,970 --> 00:16:00,150
Yeah.

270
00:16:00,150 --> 00:16:04,020
But you know, it's, um, it only took
a few minutes before people generally

271
00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:06,780
got into a fight with Thomas Payne
'cause he was the ultimate contrarian.

272
00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:10,440
And you mentioned Benjamin
Franklin, who is, is, is, is

273
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:11,850
prominently featured in the book

274
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:13,740
and the ladies loved, uh.

275
00:16:14,265 --> 00:16:16,845
Franklin and Franklin, of course,
loved the ladies, especially

276
00:16:16,845 --> 00:16:17,985
the French ladies, I think.

277
00:16:18,405 --> 00:16:18,825
Yes.

278
00:16:18,825 --> 00:16:23,895
And, and the interesting thing is that
Thomas Payne had finally hit rock bottom.

279
00:16:24,285 --> 00:16:26,025
Uh, he had no money.

280
00:16:26,055 --> 00:16:32,085
He, he appeared before Benjamin Franklin
in London without a penny unkempt, uh,

281
00:16:32,775 --> 00:16:35,895
known as a drunkard and, uh, a contrarian.

282
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:41,340
Benjamin Franklin saw something in
that heap of human wreckage, which is

283
00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:43,170
a skill that Benjamin Franklin had.

284
00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:47,280
He had an eye for talent, but
his greatest achievement without

285
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,500
question was Thomas Payne.

286
00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:53,790
He was the one who paid for
Thomas Payne to go to America.

287
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,020
He was the one who wrote his
son the governor, to ask that

288
00:16:58,020 --> 00:16:59,550
he find a position for him.

289
00:16:59,550 --> 00:17:03,120
He was the one that told
Thomas Payne, you should write.

290
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,440
And it, and in many ways the book
looks at Thomas Payne because he

291
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,300
may be the quintessential American.

292
00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:15,870
He came to this shore to reinvent
himself to become something new.

293
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:21,270
And what he found was in this place
that he said that there was a special

294
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:24,060
something in the United States.

295
00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:25,620
And I think that's special something.

296
00:17:26,685 --> 00:17:28,334
Is a place without limits.

297
00:17:28,574 --> 00:17:31,845
And he came to reinvent himself and
he did, he discovered that the most

298
00:17:31,845 --> 00:17:36,885
valuable thing he had was, in his
head, it was being Thomas Payne.

299
00:17:37,245 --> 00:17:37,455
Yeah.

300
00:17:37,455 --> 00:17:42,135
And of course, uh, Fitzgerald famously
said he was completely wrong on this, that

301
00:17:42,705 --> 00:17:44,834
there are no second chances in America.

302
00:17:44,834 --> 00:17:47,534
And Thomas Payne had a second chance.

303
00:17:47,534 --> 00:17:49,514
And then perhaps that's
what America's all about.

304
00:17:49,514 --> 00:17:51,375
Let's get to the R word.

305
00:17:51,915 --> 00:17:52,665
Um.

306
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,800
Uh, Jonathan Rage are, are you
arguing in the book that there's

307
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:06,419
something uniquely American, or at
least, uh, uniquely American about

308
00:18:06,419 --> 00:18:08,610
rage in the American Revolution?

309
00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:11,970
I mean, all our revolutions you've
noted are, are driven by rage.

310
00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:15,570
That was a rageful, as you note
about Thomas pain and anger.

311
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,910
Thirst for justice.

312
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:24,660
What is so unique about the rage
driving the American Revolution?

313
00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:25,890
That thirst for justice.

314
00:18:25,890 --> 00:18:29,760
Of course, you can find not just
with robes beer, with Lenin, with

315
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,170
Mao, with many other revolutions.

316
00:18:32,625 --> 00:18:36,375
There's nothing unique about the rage
in, in, uh, the American Revolution.

317
00:18:36,375 --> 00:18:41,534
That's the point of the book that,
that rage is, is a very human feeling.

318
00:18:41,534 --> 00:18:45,225
It's my second book that deals with
my f the, the earlier book that

319
00:18:45,225 --> 00:18:48,980
you mentioned dealt with the, what
I call the Age of Rage and Yeah.

320
00:18:48,980 --> 00:18:52,784
And the subtitle of the book is
Free Speech In An Age of Rage.

321
00:18:52,845 --> 00:18:53,085
Yeah.

322
00:18:53,145 --> 00:18:55,335
But it's not our first age of rage and.

323
00:18:55,815 --> 00:18:56,925
It's not unique.

324
00:18:57,075 --> 00:19:01,785
But what was unique was the
recognition of the founders.

325
00:19:01,785 --> 00:19:05,835
They did not want an Athenian
democracy, which was utter failure.

326
00:19:05,835 --> 00:19:09,345
It, it lasted not that very long
and, and ended up in tyranny.

327
00:19:10,005 --> 00:19:14,475
They did not want what one framer
called a mo that the tendency of

328
00:19:14,475 --> 00:19:16,605
democracies to devour themselves.

329
00:19:16,965 --> 00:19:18,415
So what was unique was the.

330
00:19:18,620 --> 00:19:23,330
Effort put in to create a system
that could vent the pressures,

331
00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:27,290
that would blow democracies
apart, that could handle the rage.

332
00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:30,560
That's what was unique,
not the rage itself.

333
00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:31,370
And,

334
00:19:31,885 --> 00:19:37,070
and that's of course Madison and, uh, the
other authors of the Federalist Papers.

335
00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:41,719
Then are you arguing that the key event
perhaps in the revolution was the debate?

336
00:19:43,185 --> 00:19:46,455
Articulated in the Federalist
papers about a centralized

337
00:19:46,455 --> 00:19:48,765
government versus something else.

338
00:19:49,365 --> 00:19:52,275
Well, what I talk about, particularly
the second half of the book and

339
00:19:52,275 --> 00:19:56,655
trying to identify the elements
that led us to create this republic

340
00:19:56,655 --> 00:20:00,135
is that we're gonna need them more
than ever in the 21st century.

341
00:20:00,765 --> 00:20:02,775
And many of those are Madisonian.

342
00:20:02,875 --> 00:20:03,745
Precautions.

343
00:20:03,745 --> 00:20:07,045
You know, I do a sort of, the first
half is sort of a tale of two cities.

344
00:20:07,045 --> 00:20:09,505
I look at Philadelphia and Paris.

345
00:20:09,715 --> 00:20:11,875
Both had violence in the street.

346
00:20:11,875 --> 00:20:13,915
This was after the American Revolution.

347
00:20:14,245 --> 00:20:16,315
Paris was about to get blown apart again.

348
00:20:16,345 --> 00:20:19,435
Uh, there was an attack called
the Battle of Fort Wilson.

349
00:20:19,435 --> 00:20:21,775
It was actually just James Wilson's home.

350
00:20:21,805 --> 00:20:27,115
He came damn near close, one of the
founders to being killed by a mob.

351
00:20:27,425 --> 00:20:31,565
And many people died, but then
it stomped in Philadelphia.

352
00:20:31,565 --> 00:20:32,975
That's a true miracle about it.

353
00:20:33,305 --> 00:20:37,295
And even though the Constitution
was unpopular, it barely passed in

354
00:20:37,295 --> 00:20:42,575
Pennsylvania, people discovered that
they had an alternative to going

355
00:20:42,575 --> 00:20:45,695
into the streets and it's stabilized.

356
00:20:45,995 --> 00:20:47,285
That's what was missing.

357
00:20:47,285 --> 00:20:51,695
The French Revolution and
it take, it takes a lot.

358
00:20:52,050 --> 00:20:54,240
When you unleash that
rage, it takes a lot.

359
00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,960
You know, starting revolutions is
not as as difficult as ending one.

360
00:20:58,380 --> 00:21:01,710
You know, Napoleon Bonaparte, of
course, was the result of the French

361
00:21:01,710 --> 00:21:03,300
Revolution, but it's Bonaparte.

362
00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:07,440
That said, a revolution is an
idea that has found its bayonets.

363
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:13,590
The problem is defined a way to put the
bayonets away when you have accomplished

364
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:18,720
or articulated that idea, and that's
what the French were unable to do.

365
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,100
It required a shock.

366
00:21:20,925 --> 00:21:22,844
To them to end the bloodletting.

367
00:21:23,084 --> 00:21:25,695
You know, you talk about the
figures from the French Revolution.

368
00:21:25,905 --> 00:21:29,475
One that I spend a lot of time
on is, is Corde, who is this

369
00:21:29,475 --> 00:21:35,385
beautiful woman who killed Marat
in his bathtub and it was famously

370
00:21:35,475 --> 00:21:36,284
famous painting.

371
00:21:36,284 --> 00:21:36,615
Yeah.

372
00:21:36,855 --> 00:21:37,155
Yes.

373
00:21:37,155 --> 00:21:39,615
With David, the death of, of Marat.

374
00:21:40,155 --> 00:21:42,534
Um, David was himself
a radical jack of the.

375
00:21:42,610 --> 00:21:46,120
Him and, and this was sort of a
propaganda piece he had do, he

376
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:50,620
had Marat laid out like a Piet
in the tub with alabaster skin.

377
00:21:50,889 --> 00:21:53,770
You know, Marat was in the tub
'cause his, he was covered in sores

378
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,570
'cause he had a rare skin disease.

379
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,919
And, uh, he, he most likely did
not look quite as contented as,

380
00:21:59,949 --> 00:22:06,040
uh, have a knife plunged into his
chest, but corde in many ways.

381
00:22:06,595 --> 00:22:08,335
Was a shock to the system.

382
00:22:08,395 --> 00:22:12,055
Uh, her execution was
different from the rest.

383
00:22:12,505 --> 00:22:19,225
Uh, people found her courage and not
just her beauty to be, uh, really

384
00:22:19,255 --> 00:22:26,515
sort of, um, all encompassing and
watching her execution was robes.

385
00:22:26,515 --> 00:22:29,425
Pierre next to him was Dante,
both of which would soon

386
00:22:29,425 --> 00:22:30,955
fall under the same blade.

387
00:22:31,785 --> 00:22:36,435
And I, but Corde was, I think
one of those turning points.

388
00:22:36,435 --> 00:22:37,635
She was a Republican.

389
00:22:37,635 --> 00:22:41,235
She was not, uh, a royalist in that sense.

390
00:22:41,265 --> 00:22:44,925
She had seen the bloodletting and
wanted to end it, and, but she ended

391
00:22:44,925 --> 00:22:46,155
it with an act of assassination.

392
00:22:47,745 --> 00:22:51,014
You mentioned earlier that
you're a, a Madison scholar.

393
00:22:51,044 --> 00:22:54,645
Madison, of course, is
famously associated with words.

394
00:22:54,645 --> 00:22:58,215
If, if men were angels, no
government would be necessary.

395
00:22:58,215 --> 00:23:05,804
And of course, we are not in, in terms
of defining not being angels was.

396
00:23:06,570 --> 00:23:11,940
Madison's analysis that we were rageful
or economically self-interested in

397
00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:16,680
tend tending towards faction, or are
those in his mind the same thing?

398
00:23:17,655 --> 00:23:19,935
Well, it may be in some
ways the same thing.

399
00:23:19,935 --> 00:23:23,175
You know, I, people often will
ask me, you know, it seems like

400
00:23:23,175 --> 00:23:27,615
Madison was a cynic, uh, that,
you know, he talked about factions

401
00:23:27,615 --> 00:23:29,805
and how, uh, people form factions.

402
00:23:29,985 --> 00:23:31,365
I always push back on that.

403
00:23:31,365 --> 00:23:34,274
In some ways, I consider Madison the
greatest of optimists because he.

404
00:23:34,890 --> 00:23:36,225
Took us for who we are.

405
00:23:36,225 --> 00:23:39,435
He didn't, you know, I always
tell my students, when my students

406
00:23:39,435 --> 00:23:42,795
come up and say, oh, I read, I
I've read the US Constitution.

407
00:23:42,795 --> 00:23:43,605
I just love it.

408
00:23:43,605 --> 00:23:44,445
It's so beautiful.

409
00:23:44,445 --> 00:23:47,085
I, I know they've never read
the US Constitution 'cause they,

410
00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:48,735
well they probably used AI to read it.

411
00:23:48,735 --> 00:23:49,485
They've probably got a summary.

412
00:23:50,355 --> 00:23:50,415
Yeah.

413
00:23:50,505 --> 00:23:52,545
US Constitution reads like the tax code.

414
00:23:52,545 --> 00:23:54,645
I mean it, there's nothing but
I tell 'em, if you wanna read

415
00:23:54,645 --> 00:23:57,225
a beautiful constitution, read
any of the French constitutions.

416
00:23:57,225 --> 00:24:01,155
I mean, 'cause they had a lot of
practice 'cause they failed so often and.

417
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,860
You know, but they knew how
to write a constitution.

418
00:24:03,889 --> 00:24:08,209
They would talk about the rights of
man, this horizonal view of who we

419
00:24:08,209 --> 00:24:11,209
are, and they would have a revolution,
and the next morning they'd wake up

420
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:14,810
and have that morning after feeling
that you're not quite the, yeah.

421
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:18,560
Jonathan, what's, you know, I've heard
the, it's an interesting argument.

422
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,000
I've heard it many times before.

423
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,300
What's original about your argument
about this distinction between the

424
00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:24,860
American and the French Revolution?

425
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,290
Well, that's really not
the thrust of the book.

426
00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:28,185
The thrust of the book.

427
00:24:28,815 --> 00:24:29,625
Uh, is

428
00:24:29,625 --> 00:24:31,485
so you would acknowledge it's
not particularly original.

429
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:33,030
That, uh,

430
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,340
about how often the French, about the,

431
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:40,679
well, the, the American was Madisonian
and the French was rooted in violence and

432
00:24:40,679 --> 00:24:42,929
rage and Rob Spear and the guillotine.

433
00:24:42,929 --> 00:24:46,230
No, the book, the book actually,
uh, does, it does not just

434
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:47,610
say that the book looks at.

435
00:24:48,330 --> 00:24:53,670
The French Revolution and the difference
between Voltaire and, and and Rousseau.

436
00:24:53,670 --> 00:24:57,000
You know, it was famously said by
one French, French historian that

437
00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:01,680
the first French revolution was
Volta, and the second, which became

438
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:02,909
the reign of terror, was Rousseau.

439
00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:08,790
And I look at, at what were the
contributors there, because the thrust of

440
00:25:08,790 --> 00:25:11,280
my book is really to sort of have some.

441
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,560
Guide a survival guide, uh, for, uh,
this republic in the 21st century.

442
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,370
And we're going to have to
rely on those elements more

443
00:25:21,370 --> 00:25:22,930
than we have ever done before.

444
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:26,530
And the concern I raise is that
many of my colleagues, a lot

445
00:25:26,530 --> 00:25:27,940
of law professors, law deans.

446
00:25:28,774 --> 00:25:32,975
Uh, our calling for removing some of
the very elements, identifying the book

447
00:25:32,975 --> 00:25:36,695
is key to why we stabilized and became.

448
00:25:36,695 --> 00:25:36,815
So

449
00:25:37,055 --> 00:25:41,014
are you suggesting that there are
robe spears hidden in lots of law

450
00:25:41,014 --> 00:25:42,395
departments around the country?

451
00:25:43,145 --> 00:25:46,745
Um, I'm not saying that, in fact,
in the book I say I don't believe

452
00:25:46,745 --> 00:25:52,115
that any of these new jacobins want
to see, uh, um, you know, the, uh,

453
00:25:52,115 --> 00:25:56,915
the carts rolled down Pennsylvania
Avenue, but neither did robes Pierre.

454
00:25:57,135 --> 00:25:58,245
Uh, when he began.

455
00:25:58,245 --> 00:26:06,495
The key is that you can lose control,
uh, to a mob if you, if you have

456
00:26:06,495 --> 00:26:10,455
more direct democratic impulse,
if you remove these precautions.

457
00:26:10,455 --> 00:26:13,574
And what concerns me is, you know,
one of the priorities is the change

458
00:26:13,574 --> 00:26:15,645
the Supreme Court to pack the supreme.

459
00:26:16,575 --> 00:26:21,075
Uh, also to change the US Senate, uh,
with the Dean of Berkeley Law School has

460
00:26:21,075 --> 00:26:25,305
a book out saying, no constitution lasts
forever, and says that the US Constitution

461
00:26:25,305 --> 00:26:27,705
is now the threat that has to be overcome.

462
00:26:27,735 --> 00:26:29,805
Who's the dean of the Berkeley Law School?

463
00:26:29,985 --> 00:26:31,305
Uh, Irwin Chasky.

464
00:26:31,545 --> 00:26:31,845
Yeah.

465
00:26:31,845 --> 00:26:32,715
He is been on the show.

466
00:26:32,715 --> 00:26:35,415
Let's, so let's fast forward,
let's get to the core of the book.

467
00:26:35,835 --> 00:26:40,155
Yesterday was the Super Bowl, uh,
supposedly bringing Americans.

468
00:26:40,815 --> 00:26:41,955
Together of course.

469
00:26:41,955 --> 00:26:46,545
Although if anything, it divided them even
more attitudes to culture and politics.

470
00:26:46,545 --> 00:26:51,014
Some people might be listening to this,
um, Jonathan, and thinking, well, this

471
00:26:51,014 --> 00:26:56,685
guy's talking about the dangers of mob
ocracy, but he's on Fox News all the time.

472
00:26:56,685 --> 00:27:02,445
Isn't the danger of mob, ocracy and
rage isn't that more manifest on

473
00:27:02,445 --> 00:27:06,645
the right with the followers of MAGA
and Trump than it is on the left?

474
00:27:07,004 --> 00:27:09,075
In America in 2026.

475
00:27:09,435 --> 00:27:13,875
I don't see how you could argue that in
the sense that there's rage on both sides.

476
00:27:13,875 --> 00:27:15,825
You see it all around you.

477
00:27:15,825 --> 00:27:17,385
Rage is a strange thing.

478
00:27:17,865 --> 00:27:23,745
It gives you license to say and do things
you would not ordinarily say or do, but

479
00:27:23,745 --> 00:27:25,815
what people won't admit on either side.

480
00:27:26,219 --> 00:27:29,639
Is that they like it, it's
addictive and it's contagious.

481
00:27:29,939 --> 00:27:32,550
I, I don't see any
difference in that sense.

482
00:27:33,090 --> 00:27:33,929
I, and

483
00:27:34,199 --> 00:27:38,455
although, uh, coming back to the
politicians, I know, you know,

484
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:39,990
you're not a big admirer of.

485
00:27:40,875 --> 00:27:44,565
Some of the, the politicians on the
left, you wrote something critical of, of

486
00:27:44,565 --> 00:27:51,435
Newsom, but Trump seems to capture the,
the sort of the rageful zeitgeist of the

487
00:27:51,435 --> 00:27:53,085
age more than anyone else, doesn't he?

488
00:27:53,085 --> 00:27:57,405
I certainly don't see a, a rageful
trump on the left in America, or at

489
00:27:57,405 --> 00:28:00,645
least one who has any political skills.

490
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,629
I'm not too sure how you
could have missed that.

491
00:28:03,810 --> 00:28:05,580
Well, who would be an example?

492
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,889
Well, you have everyone from Governor
Waltz to the members of Congress

493
00:28:10,889 --> 00:28:17,159
calling ice Nazis, Gestapo, uh, saying
there's gonna be Nuremberg trials.

494
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,120
What do you call that?

495
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:18,240
If

496
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,370
it's not, they say that,
well, but what is not a,

497
00:28:23,250 --> 00:28:24,270
I wanna correct something out.

498
00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:27,990
And that is, I've been
critical of both sides.

499
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,870
My students will tell you I haven't
liked the president since James

500
00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:35,699
Madison, and so I have criticized
President Trump and when I thought he

501
00:28:35,699 --> 00:28:37,530
was right, I have said that as well.

502
00:28:37,949 --> 00:28:40,020
But there is no lock on rage today.

503
00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:45,040
That is a. Conceit that people love to
say that it's the other side, right.

504
00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:46,690
My rage is righteous.

505
00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:48,100
Their rage is dangerous.

506
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:50,890
That's very much the voice of rage.

507
00:28:51,340 --> 00:28:51,610
And are

508
00:28:51,610 --> 00:28:53,320
you raging against rage, though?

509
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,030
It sounds, if you might be a bit,

510
00:28:55,060 --> 00:28:58,480
no, 'cause I actually, I don't
think that it's, the rage itself

511
00:28:58,540 --> 00:29:00,310
is, is the threatening element.

512
00:29:01,050 --> 00:29:03,450
We have a system that can handle rage.

513
00:29:03,455 --> 00:29:08,580
It, it was, I, I testified once in
Congress when one of the members

514
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:12,990
asked me, you know, you always talk
to us about, uh, the framers, but

515
00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:15,450
you know, people today talk like
they're trying to kill each other.

516
00:29:15,450 --> 00:29:18,810
And I pointed out, you know,
congressman, they were actually

517
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,250
trying to kill each other back then.

518
00:29:20,460 --> 00:29:24,210
The, the US Constitution wasn't
just written for times like this.

519
00:29:24,210 --> 00:29:25,620
It was written during a time like this.

520
00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:28,920
It was designed to handle rage.

521
00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:30,750
I'm not afraid of the rage.

522
00:29:31,290 --> 00:29:34,620
What I'm afraid of is removing
the elements that we need to

523
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:37,710
regulate, uh, and moderate the rage.

524
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,500
That's what can become a hypocrisy.

525
00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:42,210
Are we a hypocrisy now?

526
00:29:42,270 --> 00:29:46,230
No, because we have a system
designed not to let that happen.

527
00:29:46,650 --> 00:29:46,860
Go.

528
00:29:46,860 --> 00:29:50,610
Going back to pain, say comparing
the comparison of pain, who was.

529
00:29:51,629 --> 00:29:55,470
An itinerant Englishman who suffered
a lot in his life in Jefferson,

530
00:29:55,470 --> 00:29:58,649
who was an aristocrat and had a
wonderful estate on Monticello,

531
00:29:58,649 --> 00:30:01,710
lots of slaves, even a slave wife.

532
00:30:02,159 --> 00:30:06,120
He had reason to be cheerful with
his wine and his fancy new estate.

533
00:30:06,210 --> 00:30:11,850
Uh, some people might argue in America
in 2026, Jonathan, that there's all

534
00:30:11,850 --> 00:30:17,010
reason to be raged too much more and more
inequalities, more and more of a struggle

535
00:30:17,010 --> 00:30:22,740
to survive, to pay one's rent, anger on
the street, anger against the police,

536
00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:25,260
anger within the police, blah, blah, blah.

537
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,524
Can one argue in 2026 that the.

538
00:30:30,435 --> 00:30:36,015
Rage that you fear and are critical
of is almost logical, inevitable,

539
00:30:36,015 --> 00:30:41,205
given the economic and cultural
organization of the current republic.

540
00:30:42,465 --> 00:30:46,815
I, the, that's actually what I
say in the book, that the, I don't

541
00:30:46,815 --> 00:30:48,195
actually, I, I don't actually.

542
00:30:48,824 --> 00:30:51,915
Uh, condemn rage as an
emotion or a passion.

543
00:30:51,915 --> 00:30:55,844
I, I believe rage is something
inherent during times of great

544
00:30:55,844 --> 00:30:58,754
economic, uh, and political change.

545
00:30:58,784 --> 00:31:00,375
That's not the problem.

546
00:31:00,824 --> 00:31:05,445
Uh, but what I am warning about
in the book is our, how we're

547
00:31:05,445 --> 00:31:07,004
going to face what's coming.

548
00:31:07,395 --> 00:31:11,715
Which I believe with AI and robotics
will I take the most conservative

549
00:31:11,715 --> 00:31:16,035
estimates on the loss of jobs
from uh, from that technology.

550
00:31:16,395 --> 00:31:22,785
And we are looking at the possibility
of a very large static unemployed.

551
00:31:22,935 --> 00:31:26,235
Class of individuals who would
be supported by the state and the

552
00:31:26,235 --> 00:31:30,284
book asks, how does that change a
citizen's relationship to the state?

553
00:31:30,554 --> 00:31:33,345
I disagree with you by the way,
when you said that pain was

554
00:31:33,345 --> 00:31:34,784
not a big fan of capitalism.

555
00:31:34,784 --> 00:31:35,655
I think you're wrong.

556
00:31:36,105 --> 00:31:40,605
And uh, you know, I note in the
book that, you know, the Wealth of

557
00:31:40,605 --> 00:31:42,855
Nations came out the year of our.

558
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:47,220
Of the Declaration of
Independence, it was embraced here.

559
00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:48,870
It was not a huge success in Europe.

560
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:50,250
It was a big success here.

561
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,200
'cause the founders viewed his
economic theory as being the perfect

562
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,010
companion to their political theory,
and it was the combination of that.

563
00:31:59,615 --> 00:32:02,585
That helped stabilize the system.

564
00:32:02,825 --> 00:32:06,845
Payne actually said many things
in agreement with, with Smith.

565
00:32:07,055 --> 00:32:09,755
He was also, however,
very forward looking.

566
00:32:09,755 --> 00:32:13,475
He would talk about things that we would
consider today to be public welfare

567
00:32:13,475 --> 00:32:20,795
systems, but he was actually a fairly,
um, outspoken supporter of free markets.

568
00:32:21,485 --> 00:32:28,205
Yeah, and of course Smith himself was not
really smithian in the sense that some.

569
00:32:28,875 --> 00:32:30,615
Libertarians have interpreted it.

570
00:32:30,615 --> 00:32:33,315
So Jonathan, let's get to
the heart of the book then.

571
00:32:33,765 --> 00:32:38,925
If indeed, America is on the brink
of a new chapter of massive rage, if

572
00:32:38,925 --> 00:32:41,265
everyone's about to lose their jobs to ai.

573
00:32:42,074 --> 00:32:44,264
What would you advise is the solution?

574
00:32:44,264 --> 00:32:46,064
Political, economic, cultural.

575
00:32:47,054 --> 00:32:49,995
I actually think the, the book
talks about a number of elements

576
00:32:49,995 --> 00:32:51,345
that we have to focus on.

577
00:32:51,675 --> 00:32:57,225
One is we can't have a kept
population, so you can't, uh, this

578
00:32:57,225 --> 00:33:01,635
republic won't work if people are
simply subsidized by the government.

579
00:33:01,635 --> 00:33:05,895
It won't work because it denies
something very human about us, not just

580
00:33:05,895 --> 00:33:08,715
our relationship to the government,
but people need to be productive.

581
00:33:08,745 --> 00:33:10,004
They need to have a way.

582
00:33:10,445 --> 00:33:14,345
One of the things the framers
liked about Smith was they believed

583
00:33:14,345 --> 00:33:18,605
that if you weren't economically
independent, you'd never truly be free.

584
00:33:19,025 --> 00:33:23,165
So the book talks about mistakes
that we have to avoid, subsidizing

585
00:33:23,165 --> 00:33:26,885
industries that are going to be
devastated by AI and robotics.

586
00:33:27,275 --> 00:33:30,395
Uh, that's usually the first
tendency of politicians is just

587
00:33:30,575 --> 00:33:32,765
prop up industries like that,

588
00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:35,735
or, or the coal industry in
West Virginia that, yeah.

589
00:33:35,825 --> 00:33:38,255
Well the key is to find homo centric.

590
00:33:38,790 --> 00:33:46,740
Uh, um, occupations and I talk about
those, uh, a shift, but we cannot have

591
00:33:46,740 --> 00:33:49,230
what I call an arts and crafts population.

592
00:33:49,230 --> 00:33:54,960
You can't just entertain the population,
uh, that will have no productive use.

593
00:33:55,290 --> 00:33:57,450
'cause human beings have to
be productive in my field.

594
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,899
So you are not a big fan of
the abundance argument either.

595
00:34:01,130 --> 00:34:05,780
Um, Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson,
or the more radical abundance

596
00:34:05,780 --> 00:34:10,250
argument out in Silicon Valley that
technology will liberate us from labor.

597
00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:11,300
It's really Marx.

598
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:13,250
His, uh, German.

599
00:34:13,784 --> 00:34:18,885
A German ideology argument that, uh,
we'll all be free to be writers or

600
00:34:18,885 --> 00:34:21,135
philosophers or poets in the afternoon.

601
00:34:21,135 --> 00:34:22,245
You don't believe in any of that?

602
00:34:22,245 --> 00:34:22,275
I

603
00:34:22,665 --> 00:34:23,054
don't.

604
00:34:23,264 --> 00:34:26,985
And I go into in depth on
that as to why it's important

605
00:34:26,985 --> 00:34:29,534
for people to be productive.

606
00:34:29,565 --> 00:34:32,054
You know, I talk about the fact
that, look, one of my grandfathers

607
00:34:32,054 --> 00:34:35,534
was a coal miner who got black
lung in the minds of Ohio.

608
00:34:35,534 --> 00:34:37,275
The other one was a, was a Cooper.

609
00:34:37,335 --> 00:34:38,360
He made barrels.

610
00:34:39,155 --> 00:34:40,625
Neither of them liked their job.

611
00:34:40,625 --> 00:34:45,215
I mean, one almost killed my,
my Italian grandfather, but

612
00:34:45,215 --> 00:34:46,835
if you asked him who he was.

613
00:34:47,550 --> 00:34:51,030
Even long after he had left the
mines, he said he was a coal miner.

614
00:34:51,570 --> 00:34:55,380
And the reason is that we are often
identified with what makes us productive.

615
00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:59,100
That's why people come to this
country, to reinvent themselves,

616
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,780
to find their own manifest destiny.

617
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:01,920
The second chances.

618
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,030
Yeah.

619
00:35:03,090 --> 00:35:08,130
And I think that this idea that we're
just going to be a kept population,

620
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:10,890
uh, ignores that very human need.

621
00:35:11,295 --> 00:35:12,855
So I, I take your point, Jonathan.

622
00:35:12,855 --> 00:35:17,835
I'm not sure anyone would necessarily
argue, but in, in our age where we

623
00:35:17,835 --> 00:35:21,615
have a, a winner take all capitalism
where we have fewer and fewer

624
00:35:21,615 --> 00:35:26,565
companies controlling more and more
of the economy, uh, open AI anthropic

625
00:35:26,565 --> 00:35:28,995
will likely do their IPOs this year.

626
00:35:29,565 --> 00:35:33,105
These new AI companies are controlling
everything they'll eliminate

627
00:35:33,134 --> 00:35:36,795
for better or worse, willingly
or, or consciously or otherwise.

628
00:35:37,350 --> 00:35:43,320
Jobs to, to borrow, uh, another phrase
from a, another revolutionary, I'm

629
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,150
sure one that you're not keen on Lenin.

630
00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:47,250
What is to be done,
what, what should happen?

631
00:35:47,250 --> 00:35:49,110
What are you arguing in favor of?

632
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:55,830
Well, I'm arguing in favor of preserving,
trying to reduce the dependency and ation

633
00:35:55,830 --> 00:36:01,920
of the population by making wise choices
as to how we support certain industries,

634
00:36:02,430 --> 00:36:05,580
but also to reaffirm those elements.

635
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,680
That protect liberty.

636
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,430
And many of those elements are the
ones being under attack by many

637
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:13,440
folks, including many law professors.

638
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,210
And so I, I try to argue as
best I can, uh, that we need to

639
00:36:18,210 --> 00:36:19,980
preserve that more than ever.

640
00:36:20,009 --> 00:36:23,759
Uh, and that could be
the key here because.

641
00:36:24,109 --> 00:36:28,069
I talk about what I call corporate
feudalism, uh, which is the rise of these

642
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:33,109
major corporations and the dangers they,
they present Also, global governance

643
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:38,390
systems like the eu, uh, which I believe
is probably the worst positioned in

644
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:40,939
dealing with the problems that are coming.

645
00:36:40,939 --> 00:36:42,080
I believe the eu.

646
00:36:42,385 --> 00:36:47,515
Could ultimately collapse in spectacular
fashion because it does not have the

647
00:36:47,515 --> 00:36:51,265
elements that I discussed in this
book that are going to be necessary

648
00:36:51,265 --> 00:36:53,095
to protect individual liberty.

649
00:36:53,095 --> 00:36:56,215
And what happens is that when you
have a system like that collapse,

650
00:36:56,545 --> 00:36:59,270
it's very dangerous because
it often ends up in tyranny.

651
00:37:01,455 --> 00:37:04,575
Yeah, I take your point, although it's
not, it's, it's not a book about the

652
00:37:04,575 --> 00:37:09,705
eu, but then if everything you're saying
is true, and I don't think many people

653
00:37:09,705 --> 00:37:13,455
would disagree that people are gonna
lose their jobs, their ways of life.

654
00:37:14,265 --> 00:37:17,175
You're arguing against state intervention.

655
00:37:17,175 --> 00:37:22,305
You're arguing that a kept population
is a, is an unfree population,

656
00:37:22,305 --> 00:37:23,895
an un-American population.

657
00:37:24,690 --> 00:37:28,350
What becomes of the, the people
who lose their jobs, if you're not

658
00:37:28,350 --> 00:37:31,799
gonna give them guaranteed minimum
income, which I'm sure you're against,

659
00:37:32,370 --> 00:37:33,480
then what are they supposed to do?

660
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,450
Are you falling back on a
kind of hard victorianism?

661
00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:38,670
These people should
just die on the street.

662
00:37:39,330 --> 00:37:44,190
I'm not too sure why you think I'm against
supporting people who don't have jobs.

663
00:37:44,190 --> 00:37:46,080
Of course, I'm in favor of that.

664
00:37:46,410 --> 00:37:48,330
But you're against the cap population.

665
00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:49,890
That's right.

666
00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:54,360
But there's, there's a little room between
that and leaving a population to starve.

667
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:57,750
I mean the, I think that we are
going to have to subsidize a

668
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:59,310
large population of unemployed.

669
00:37:59,310 --> 00:38:03,480
The question is, what will we
do beyond the subsidization?

670
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,700
And I argue against certain moves like
the subsidy of failing industries and

671
00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:12,750
instead shifting over to industries
that will remain homo centric.

672
00:38:12,750 --> 00:38:16,800
There are certain types of jobs that
people are still gonna want a human.

673
00:38:17,125 --> 00:38:18,115
Element in the book.

674
00:38:18,115 --> 00:38:20,245
I actually call them GYN jobs.

675
00:38:20,275 --> 00:38:23,935
Um, and only nerds will
understand that term.

676
00:38:24,295 --> 00:38:28,615
Uh, 'cause GYN was the
bartender on, uh, the um.

677
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:34,440
Next generation on, on, uh, on
the enterprise and 10 forward.

678
00:38:34,799 --> 00:38:35,340
And I always,

679
00:38:35,340 --> 00:38:36,900
so you're a Star Trek person too.

680
00:38:36,930 --> 00:38:37,500
You've got a little bit

681
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,950
of Well, but it, I always admit was
I, I always thought it was curious

682
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:45,540
growing up that you had a replicator
right behind Gyan that could make

683
00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:50,250
the perfect Rolin sunrise cocktail,
and yet people would have her make

684
00:38:50,250 --> 00:38:54,240
it, even though that replicator could
make literally the perfect cocktail.

685
00:38:54,299 --> 00:38:56,009
But this is all fantasy, Jonathan.

686
00:38:56,009 --> 00:38:58,320
It's all very well for
professors like yourself too.

687
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,375
No, hold on.

688
00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:02,790
People are gonna lose their jobs.

689
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:03,180
Right.

690
00:39:03,185 --> 00:39:08,310
Over, over all this, you, you're not
in favor of subsidizing coal miners

691
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:11,760
or maybe lawyers because they're
gonna be out of work through ai.

692
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:13,740
What are you suggesting?

693
00:39:13,740 --> 00:39:15,390
Everyone should become masses.

694
00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:19,500
I mean, gimme some examples of work
that you think will flourish in this.

695
00:39:20,085 --> 00:39:21,105
Age of ai?

696
00:39:21,105 --> 00:39:21,765
Of robotics.

697
00:39:21,915 --> 00:39:23,325
Well, I was getting to that.

698
00:39:23,325 --> 00:39:25,424
The question is what are GY jobs?

699
00:39:25,424 --> 00:39:28,455
What are jobs that people
still want a human being to do?

700
00:39:28,515 --> 00:39:32,955
And there's a great variety of them from
education to certain areas of medicine.

701
00:39:32,955 --> 00:39:36,045
I talk about how certain areas
of medicine are going to be

702
00:39:36,105 --> 00:39:38,234
largely wiped out by ai, robotics.

703
00:39:38,234 --> 00:39:41,355
Things like you're not gonna
have as many radiologists, uh,

704
00:39:41,355 --> 00:39:42,825
just because it's sort of silly.

705
00:39:42,825 --> 00:39:47,234
If you can have AI do that function
better, but you are gonna have

706
00:39:47,234 --> 00:39:48,464
psychiatrists, psychologists.

707
00:39:49,020 --> 00:39:49,740
Analyst.

708
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:53,730
You're also gonna have a lot of,
of industries, particularly like

709
00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:56,970
education, that people are going to
still, which is one of the largest

710
00:39:56,970 --> 00:39:58,620
employers already in the United States.

711
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,609
There are more teachers, although AI
can replace teachers, why, why shouldn't

712
00:40:02,609 --> 00:40:07,140
a, a smart machine replace a teacher
and more than a, a smart machine?

713
00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:08,100
Replace a lawyer.

714
00:40:08,430 --> 00:40:12,180
Because I, I think it's possible they
could, but I do think that that may be

715
00:40:12,180 --> 00:40:16,680
a GYN area that, uh, people are still
going to want to have human beings

716
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,149
involved, including with the law.

717
00:40:18,149 --> 00:40:22,200
For example, we've seen ai, uh,
involved in the law in a very

718
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,020
significant way, but I still think
that there's going to be a desire

719
00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:26,940
to have human lawyers, human judges.

720
00:40:27,509 --> 00:40:30,390
So there's industries
like that that we have to.

721
00:40:30,575 --> 00:40:32,075
To, to see.

722
00:40:32,615 --> 00:40:36,904
So the argument here is not,
don't subsidize starving people.

723
00:40:37,205 --> 00:40:42,154
Obviously we are gonna be giving some
type of living wage to a large population.

724
00:40:42,484 --> 00:40:47,404
But what we have to look at is how that
affects politically, the relationship

725
00:40:47,404 --> 00:40:51,904
of citizens to the government, and
how we can preserve the sense of

726
00:40:51,904 --> 00:40:58,535
productivity, individuality, uh, that
citizens need, uh, to feel fully human.

727
00:40:59,895 --> 00:41:03,525
What about the top villian
analysis of revolution, Jonathan?

728
00:41:03,525 --> 00:41:08,445
That people get angriest, not when they're
at their poorest or when they're suffering

729
00:41:08,445 --> 00:41:15,315
the most, but actually when they're
a little better off is rage rational.

730
00:41:17,175 --> 00:41:18,885
Well, rage can't be rational.

731
00:41:18,915 --> 00:41:21,165
You know, it's also
very subjective, right?

732
00:41:21,165 --> 00:41:23,625
That it's, uh, your rage is righteous.

733
00:41:23,625 --> 00:41:25,155
Their rage is dangerous.

734
00:41:25,635 --> 00:41:30,045
Uh, you know, I've been a legal
analyst for Ford Networks for 30 years.

735
00:41:30,105 --> 00:41:31,155
C-B-S-N-B.

736
00:41:31,155 --> 00:41:38,985
CBBC, uh, and Fox recently, and
I've always seen rage on both sides.

737
00:41:39,525 --> 00:41:42,915
Uh, and there's always a reason for it.

738
00:41:43,605 --> 00:41:45,255
Uh, that's the thing about rage.

739
00:41:46,455 --> 00:41:51,285
It's what rage unleashes that can
become dangerous if it's not controlled.

740
00:41:51,915 --> 00:41:56,745
And that's what Madison and others
tried to do, um, did very well.

741
00:41:56,745 --> 00:41:57,254
I think.

742
00:41:58,185 --> 00:42:02,504
Um, it's what the French failed to
do with their early constitutions.

743
00:42:03,165 --> 00:42:05,685
Uh, so we have to look at that.

744
00:42:06,060 --> 00:42:10,680
And we also have to preserve what
I call a liberty enhancing economy.

745
00:42:11,220 --> 00:42:14,880
That, you know, yes, we're gonna
have to subsidize a large population

746
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,090
of unemployed people and many of
those individuals, because of their

747
00:42:18,090 --> 00:42:21,480
age, we have to accept, are probably
not going to be employed again.

748
00:42:22,020 --> 00:42:26,970
But we have to be able to use these
years to try to prepare for that.

749
00:42:27,420 --> 00:42:30,030
Uh, we just can't just cut them checks.

750
00:42:30,090 --> 00:42:34,710
Uh, we have to look at the implications
politically and socially for people who.

751
00:42:35,075 --> 00:42:36,605
Are kept in that sense.

752
00:42:37,475 --> 00:42:40,535
So your solution isn't not so
much legal, even if you're a legal

753
00:42:40,535 --> 00:42:42,755
analyst, it's economic and political.

754
00:42:43,115 --> 00:42:45,395
Are there models of this?

755
00:42:45,395 --> 00:42:48,545
I mean, are you really calling
for a, a digital new deal?

756
00:42:48,545 --> 00:42:50,015
Is FDR the model here?

757
00:42:51,365 --> 00:42:53,285
No, I wouldn't necessarily say that.

758
00:42:53,285 --> 00:42:53,705
I think that.

759
00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:58,920
Uh, what we do have to do is
to try to preserve capitalistic

760
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,930
elements to allow people to,

761
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,430
so where's the model then?

762
00:43:02,430 --> 00:43:03,360
I I take your point.

763
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:08,010
If you're not falling back on FDR, I'm not
sure pain would be particularly helpful

764
00:43:08,010 --> 00:43:09,780
here, or even Madison or Jefferson.

765
00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:11,760
Where's the model in American history who?

766
00:43:12,495 --> 00:43:16,845
Who addressed this issue in a way
that you think we can learn from?

767
00:43:16,845 --> 00:43:19,694
Or is it so new that we're
gonna need to invent new

768
00:43:19,694 --> 00:43:21,615
political ideas and politicians?

769
00:43:22,245 --> 00:43:27,674
I'm not sure we'll need new political
ideas as much as, uh, retooling the ideas

770
00:43:27,674 --> 00:43:29,174
we had at the beginning of the revolution.

771
00:43:29,174 --> 00:43:34,515
We have a system that is designed to
deal with these types of pressures, but

772
00:43:34,634 --> 00:43:38,805
we are going to have a mix of social
programs, things like a living wage.

773
00:43:39,254 --> 00:43:40,575
Uh, we're gonna have to be nimble.

774
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,830
Uh, it means that we're gonna have to
accept that many industries are going

775
00:43:44,830 --> 00:43:48,010
to be robotic, uh, or changed by ai.

776
00:43:48,340 --> 00:43:52,030
Uh, we are going to have to try
to encourage people to go into

777
00:43:52,030 --> 00:43:54,100
those more homo centric industries.

778
00:43:54,430 --> 00:43:55,810
I think education will be, I

779
00:43:55,810 --> 00:43:57,040
say encourage, I mean.

780
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:58,950
What, what exactly does that mean?

781
00:43:58,979 --> 00:44:00,149
Are they being paid to do it?

782
00:44:00,149 --> 00:44:01,410
Are they being forced to do it?

783
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,700
No, it's to the degree that the
government favors new industries.

784
00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:10,200
It should be, in fact, new industries,
not subsidizing, failing industries.

785
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,680
Uh, but also there's a lot of
education that the government can

786
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,520
help here and directing people
who are, who want to be employed.

787
00:44:18,435 --> 00:44:22,035
Into areas where there is greater
potential for that employment.

788
00:44:22,365 --> 00:44:25,305
What you don't want is to have
this sort of past dependence

789
00:44:25,305 --> 00:44:28,935
where you have people training for
jobs that simply won't be there.

790
00:44:28,995 --> 00:44:29,325
Right.

791
00:44:29,325 --> 00:44:29,985
They, excuse me.

792
00:44:30,915 --> 00:44:35,205
I mean, if you are, you know, training
to be a radiologist today, I'm

793
00:44:35,205 --> 00:44:36,795
afraid that's a bit of a mistake.

794
00:44:37,125 --> 00:44:38,325
Uh, and you have to,

795
00:44:38,325 --> 00:44:40,155
well, their government never really knows.

796
00:44:40,155 --> 00:44:40,890
I mean, who knows whether.

797
00:44:42,255 --> 00:44:47,955
Radiologists or lawyers or engineers or
politicians or law professors, uh, it

798
00:44:47,955 --> 00:44:54,375
sounds to me, Jonathan f finally, that
your ideal state, I know you're not a

799
00:44:54,375 --> 00:45:01,065
big fan of the eu, but there is a kind
of technocratic, enlightenment, fantasy

800
00:45:01,065 --> 00:45:05,235
that you have of government may not be
quite the eu, but it's Danish or German

801
00:45:05,235 --> 00:45:07,515
smart state trying to push people into.

802
00:45:08,355 --> 00:45:13,299
Industries that are relevant for the
future rather than the past, certainly.

803
00:45:14,055 --> 00:45:15,285
Not a MAGA person.

804
00:45:15,285 --> 00:45:19,455
You're not a, a Nostalgist, but is
there a, a kind of government, maybe

805
00:45:19,455 --> 00:45:24,555
the, the Chinese or the Korean or
the Danish that, that, that suits

806
00:45:24,555 --> 00:45:26,865
your, your vision of the future?

807
00:45:27,075 --> 00:45:28,635
Who gets who's getting it right?

808
00:45:29,235 --> 00:45:33,255
I actually think the American Republic
actually offers the best structure here.

809
00:45:33,625 --> 00:45:36,445
And, um, I don't think it's
just the government's job.

810
00:45:36,445 --> 00:45:40,345
When I talk about educating people,
it's going to be a job of society.

811
00:45:40,345 --> 00:45:46,735
It's gonna be our trying to direct these
discussions, uh, into areas where people

812
00:45:46,735 --> 00:45:49,375
can be productive, can be self-expressive.

813
00:45:49,765 --> 00:45:51,625
The EU is not the model.

814
00:45:51,625 --> 00:45:55,990
In fact, the book goes into how
all rights like politics are local.

815
00:45:56,370 --> 00:46:01,680
And we have to support, uh, the sort
of decentralization of politics.

816
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,160
It's the centralization of power
that I'm worried about in, in groups

817
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,190
like the eu because I think that
the EU is inherently unstable.

818
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:10,230
Well, there you have it.

819
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,040
Excellent.

820
00:46:11,220 --> 00:46:16,350
Uh, conversation by, uh, gw,
professor of Law in new book, rage

821
00:46:16,350 --> 00:46:19,050
in the Republic, the unfinished
story of the American Revolution.

822
00:46:19,050 --> 00:46:19,980
One thing for sure.

823
00:46:20,580 --> 00:46:23,160
It is indeed an unfinished story.

824
00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:27,390
Uh, Jonathan, uh, Turley, congratulations
on the new book, and thank you

825
00:46:27,390 --> 00:46:29,100
for a fascinating conversation.

826
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:29,850
Well, thank you.

827
00:46:29,850 --> 00:46:30,930
I enjoyed it a great deal.

828
00:46:30,930 --> 00:46:31,890
Thanks for having me on.