Proudly-Jewish & Never-Boring: Alan Dershowitz on His Divorce from the Democratic Party
“A good divorce is better than a bad marriage, and this is a good divorce.” — Alan Dershowitz
The American lawyer Alan Dershowitz says he’s been voting Democrat since John F. Kennedy. He even defended Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton and Alan Cranston in court. But, at 88 years old, Dershowitz has now left — or, as he puts it, been forced out of the Dems, in the same way Ronald Reagan was sixty years ago. His new book Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You is both a history of his souring relations with the Democrats and a confessional of a reluctant Republican.
A good divorce, the twice-married Dershowitz promises, is better than a bad marriage. Like many angry spouses, he says he’s been forced into the split. Today’s Democratic Party, he claims, is closer than any political party in modern American history to what the Nazi Party was in 1932 before it came to power. He names Abdul El-Sayed and Zohran Mamdani as antisemites, calls Bernie Sanders a self-hating Jew, and insists Kamala Harris passed over Josh Shapiro because Shapiro is a Jew who wouldn’t renounce Zionism.
What’s his proof on the Harris claim? What other reason could there be? Dershowitz claims. Besides, even if Israel vanished as an issue tomorrow, he says he still couldn’t go back to the failed marriage, because the Dems have abandoned what he calls “meritocracy.”
At 88, Dershowitz is perhaps a little more self-reflective than he was in his legal pomp. In conclusion, I ask him to summarize himself in a word. “Proudly-Jewish,” he says, before adding “never-boring.” We can all agree on that, if perhaps little else.
Five Takeaways
• A Good Divorce. Dershowitz frames his departure as liberation rather than loss: a good divorce is better than a bad marriage, and he was thrown out, he says, much as Ronald Reagan was. The loyalty he is breaking runs deep — he first voted for John F. Kennedy, defended Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton and Senator Alan Cranston, and campaigned for Democrats for most of his adult life. He describes himself now as a convert, and converts, he notes, are the most fervent. What he wants is not the suffering of Democrats — his wife, children and much of his family remain in the party — but their defeat: he does not want them running the House or the Senate, and names AOC and Abdul El-Sayed as people he does not want chairing committees. He first went independent, then concluded that independence wasn’t enough, which is how a lifelong liberal became, in the book’s subtitle, a reluctant Republican — or, as Andrew put it, an angry spouse who says he was forced into the split. President Trump, he notes, endorsed the book.
• The Charge. The hour’s most incendiary material, and it should be read as his claims rather than as established fact. Dershowitz argues the Democratic Party is closer than any political party in modern American history to what the Nazi Party was in 1932 — specifically 1932, he stresses, not 1935: Jews feeling unsafe at universities, Jews losing jobs, an obsession with the nation-state of the Jewish people. He names El-Sayed and Mamdani as antisemites, says he does not believe Mamdani or his family like Jews, calls Bernie Sanders a self-hating Jew and a hypocrite, and says Elizabeth Warren doesn’t like Jews. His central political claim: no Jew perceived as pro-Israel can now win a Democratic primary, and no Jew will be nominated for president — which is why, in his telling, Kamala Harris passed over Josh Shapiro, a choice he says cost her Pennsylvania and possibly the election. Andrew asked how he could know that. “What other reason could there be?” was the answer, and Andrew offered the conventional one: that Harris didn’t want to be eclipsed by her running mate.
• Meritocracy. Andrew’s sharpest structural question was hypothetical: if the Middle East were solved overnight and Israel vanished as an American political issue, could he return to the Democratic Party? No — because of meritocracy. The Democrats, he argues, have become the party of identity politics, of judging ideas by who said them and candidates by race or gender rather than merit; DEI, in his formulation, means exclusion rather than inclusion. The argument is partly autobiographical. His father did not finish high school, his mother managed half a semester of college, and he rose, he says, on merit alone — as did friends who were Italian, Irish and Black. He does not claim anti-meritocracy is itself antisemitism, but he does argue that Jews have been disproportionate beneficiaries of meritocracy and so suffer disproportionately from its retreat.
• Andrew’s Pushback. The spine of the episode. One: has he become single-issue? His answer — that this is like asking a German in 1932 to vote on the economy — concedes the framing and defends it, arguing antisemitism is the only prejudice now moving in the wrong direction. Two: what about the antisemites of the right, Tucker Carlson and JD Vance? Republicans marginalize theirs, he says, while Democrats embrace theirs; he does not regard Vance as an antisemite, and does regard Carlson as one. Three: can a Jew criticize Israel without being an antisemite? Yes — he criticizes Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, Smotrich and Likud; what he calls antisemitism is denying the state’s right to exist, and his analogy is New Zealand. On the charge of genocide in Gaza he was categorical, calling those who use the word ignoramuses, liars and bigots — a characterization Andrew put to him twice. Four, and the exchange that lingers: why, in his account, is it always the Jews? “That question itself smacks of antisemitism,” he replied. “But you’re the one who’s said it,” Andrew answered. “I’m just asking you why.”
• Never Boring. The lawyer’s creed, and the personal coda. Dershowitz defends having represented people he despises — the Nazis who marched at Skokie; Palestinian students who wanted to fly their flag in Harvard Yard, an occasion he remembers fondly because he then spoke against Arafat at their own event; Jeffrey Epstein, whom he calls a terrible human being who did terrible things, and whose case he says he has volunteered to testify about before a House panel. His models are John Adams defending the redcoats after the Boston Massacre and Lincoln defending the guilty: the Sixth Amendment doesn’t come with a character test. There is family cost — Larry David cut him off over his defence of Trump at the first impeachment, though the two have since made up — and family discipline: no politics at Thanksgiving or the Jewish New Year. Asked for one word he’d want attached to his name, he offered two: proudly Jewish, and American. And his wife’s line, which he clearly relishes: the tombstone will say never boring. Andrew’s verdict: we can all agree on that, if little else.
About the Guest
Alan Dershowitz is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law, Emeritus, at Harvard Law School, where he taught for fifty years. His many books include Chutzpah, Reversal of Fortune and The Case for Israel. He has represented clients from Claus von Bülow and Mike Tyson to O. J. Simpson, Julian Assange, Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump, whom he defended at the first impeachment trial. Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You: Confessions of a Reluctant Re...
00:31 - Introduction: a breakup book
01:29 - A good divorce, and being thrown out like Reagan
02:51 - Does he want the Democrats to suffer?
06:02 - The party of his parents — and what he says it has become
07:13 - Is he a single-issue man?
08:37 - The 1932 comparison
09:30 - Naming names: El-Sayed, Mamdani, Schumer
11:58 - Bernie Sanders
12:44 - Can you be on the left and not be an antisemite?
13:42 - Who is the book written for?
15:25 - What about Tucker Carlson and JD Vance?
17:15 - Four Jewish candidates, and the Shapiro question
18:55 - How does he know? The San Francisco view
19:35 - If the Middle East were solved tomorrow, could he go back?
20:50 - Meritocracy, DEI and his own rise
21:59 - What would his parents make of it?
22:36 - Larry David on the Chilmark porch
23:00 - The midterms, Maine and New England
25:25 - Can a Jew criticize Israel?
26:32 - The genocide charge
29:12 - Why is it always the Jews?
33:20 - Can bigotry be defeated?
34:54 - Dinner-table politics with a Democratic family
36:09 - Are the Jews the new Blacks?
36:39 - Most American Jews still vote Democrat
38:19 - Should American Jews leave the country?
39:08 - Or stay and save the party’s soul?
40:50 - Would he defend an antisemite?
41:59 - Jeffrey Epstein, and the Sixth Amendment
43:49 - One word: proudly Jewish, American
45:24 - Never boring
00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. Couple of days ago, there was an interesting piece in The Wall Street Journal by an old friend of the show, Pamela Paul, on three books about breakups within political parties, memoirs about individuals who broke up with their political parties. And that's what we're talking about today. It's not one of those three books, but it's a book about a breakup with the Democratic Party by somebody who most of you will already know, Alan Dershowitz, longtime lawyer, politico of one kind or another, and he has a new book out this week, Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You: Confessions of a Reluctant Republican, Alan Dershowitz is joining us from, New York. Surprise, surprise. Alan, congratulations on the new book. Is this a sad book? Breakup books are usually rather sad.
00:01:29 Alan Dershowitz: No. I'm actually enthusiastic about my breakup. A good divorce is better than a bad marriage, and, this is a good divorce. I got basically thrown out of the Democratic Party the way Ronald Reagan did. I was a staunch loyal supporter of the Democrats from the time I first voted for John F. Kennedy. I defended Ted Kennedy. I defended Bill Clinton. I defended Alan Cranston. I've defended a lot of Democrats and, obviously, campaign for a lot of Democrats, but the Democratic Party is no longer my party. It's turned against America. It's turned against meritocracy, which is to me the essence of democracy, people being is being judged on the merit, not on the basis of identity politics. The Democrats has become, the party of, DEI diversity, exclusion. They say inclusion, but it's exclusion. And, I don't identify. I started out by just switching from the Democrats and became an independent, but then I realized I couldn't be an independent. I really wanna see the Democrats lose. I don't want them to control the House and the Senate. I don't want AOC to be chairman. I don't want El-Sayed to be chairman of a committee. No. So I'm a reluctant Republican.
00:02:51 Andrew Keen: So you're like an angry ex-spouse, Alan. Are you—you want your ex-wife to suffer?
00:02:58 Alan Dershowitz: Well, I'm more like a convert. I think people say converts are the most religious, and so I'm a convert. I've become Republican. I don't want the Democrats to suffer. My children are Democrats. My family are Democrats. I just don't want them to win. They can lose without suffering, but I don't want them in control of my country. I love America.
00:04:00 Andrew Keen: That was the Democrats, Alan. I don't know what they're doing. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? I can't see you. Alan, can you hear me? Hello? There, Alan. You got thrown off.
00:04:29 Alan Dershowitz: I know what happened. Yep.
00:04:31 Andrew Keen: Let's get—okay. Let's continue. Hold on. You were saying that, shit. Can you see me? Can you hear me?
00:04:47 Alan Dershowitz: I hear you. I don't see you. I see—
00:04:50 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I don't know what happened.
00:04:52 Alan Dershowitz: I don't know what's going on.
00:04:55 Andrew Keen: Are you on a phone or on a computer?
00:04:58 Alan Dershowitz: I'm on a phone. I'm on an iPhone.
00:05:00 Andrew Keen: That was the problem. I—your media person should have told you anyway.
00:05:06 Alan Dershowitz: Yeah. Anyway, let's see what we can do.
00:05:27 Andrew Keen: There you are again.
00:05:35 Alan Dershowitz: Are we good?
00:05:37 Andrew Keen: Yeah.
00:05:38 Alan Dershowitz: K.
00:05:38 Andrew Keen: Hold on. Let me, I'm going to, hide you. Can you see me now?
00:05:47 Alan Dershowitz: I can. Can you see me?
00:05:50 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I—did something happen before? No. I don't know what happened. You must have just got dropped. Okay. Just continue. You were talking about, the Dems.
00:06:02 Alan Dershowitz: The Democratic Party has become a different party than the party that my grandparents, parents, siblings, and everybody else supported for years. They've become the party of anti-meritocracy, of racist politics, of sexist politics. And, they’ve become anti-American, anti-Israel in some respects, antisemitic. And, look, they lost because of antisemitism. They should have nominated Josh Shapiro to be the vice president. He would have won Pennsylvania. Maybe he would have won the election, but, the Democrats couldn't bring themselves to nominate a Jew, a Jew who supported Israel. So they nominated a clown instead who got them nothing and, you know, lost them a lot of votes. Now there are four Democrats running for the presidency who are Jewish. In addition to him [unclear], there is Pritzker and there is Ossoff and there is, Rahm Emanuel, and none of them will get nominated because the Democrats cannot nominate a Jew. There are too many antisemites in the party to nominate a Jew.
00:07:13 Andrew Keen: Wow. You sound to me, Alan, a little bit single-issue. I mean, is all you can think about the relationship between the Dems and the Jews, or are there other reasons to be so unhappy for quitting?
00:07:27 Alan Dershowitz: Like asking a German in 1932, you're so obsessed with this Hitler guy. Oh my god. Can't you vote for the economy? Can't you vote for the environment? No. The greatest danger today to civil liberties and civil rights in the world is antisemitism and anti-Zionism. It's much greater danger than racism. It's a much greater danger than sexism, homophobia. All of those are moving in the right direction. The only ism that's moving in the wrong direction is antisemitism. So, no, I'm gonna maintain, my priorities. I spent all my life representing the rights of others or representing the rights of blacks. I marched in the nineteen sixties in Alabama and Georgia. I worked for gays and women. Now the time has come to look at what the most serious issue in the world is today and it's antisemitism. So, you know, I'm not gonna be a single-issue voter because I think that antisemitism is bad for America. I think anti-Zionism is bad for America. I'm gonna vote for what's best for America, but I'm certainly not gonna neglect the right, the influence, the safety of my fellow Jews. No.
00:08:37 Andrew Keen: Alan, we've done many shows about the relationship between the current administration and fascism. Lots of people, as you know, as well as I do, are suggesting that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi. Are you saying that the modern Democratic Party is fascist or Nazi?
00:08:56 Alan Dershowitz: I would say the Democratic Party is closest to becoming what the Nazi Party in 1932 was. Not in 1935, not 1936, but 1932, Jews feeling unsafe at universities, Jews losing their jobs, an obsession with the nation-state of the Jewish people. So I would say that today, the Democratic Party is much closer to becoming a party of antisemitism and anti-Israelism than any party in modern history has ever become.
00:09:30 Andrew Keen: Alan, who are these people? Who are the new Nazis, the new fascists in the Democratic Party? Who are they, and why are they doing it?
00:09:39 Alan Dershowitz: Not only who they are. We know who they are. They're El-Sayed. They're, Mamdani. They're many other people. The problem is the main [unclear] moving in that direction. When you get Chuck Schumer supporting El-Sayed, who campaigned with, Piker, who said that America deserved 9/11 and that Israel deserved October 7, when that's the Democratic Party, then it's not just a party where the extremes are anti-Israel, where the center is, too. Today, a Democrat cannot win a primary if he's perceived as being in any way supportive of Israel. If he's a Zionist, which just means you believe in the right of Israel to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people, he can't win a primary today. Look at what happened in New York where you had two Democrats running against each other. Goldman was the incumbent, moderate centrist Democrat, pro-Israel, but critical of Netanyahu, running against another Jew who is very willing to [unclear] Israel. [ed.: Rep. Dan Goldman lost the June 2026 NY-10 Democratic primary to Brad Lander, roughly 66 to 34 percent.] And the other Jew wins the election overwhelmingly on one issue, only one issue. Who can be more anti-Israel and more anti-Jewish? So that's what's become of the Democratic Party. It's not my party anymore.
00:10:57 Andrew Keen: So are you saying that Mamdani is a Nazi?
00:11:01 Alan Dershowitz: I'm saying he's an antisemite. There's a long way between being an antisemite [and] a Nazi. I don't think he likes Jews. I don't think his wife likes Jews. I don't think his father likes Jews. I don't think he was brought up in a setting where, or, in any way thought to be, important. No. I think Mamdani is an antisemite. I think El-Sayed is an antisemite. I think, Elizabeth Warren doesn't like Jews, even though for the Harvard faculty for many years where there were Jews, but she's voted consistently against the nation-state of the Jewish people. Look. If you single out only Israel as the only country in the world you're critical of, where we live in a world where there's so much big, so much, horrible things going on, but only Israel is your obsession. You're an antisemite. You're an international antisemite, and I'm not hesitant about calling people up on that.
00:11:58 Andrew Keen: What about the father of the American left? I'm not sure he would like to be described as that, and he's not really a Democrat, although he votes with them. Bernie Sanders, is he a fascist or a Nazi?
00:12:11 Alan Dershowitz: I wouldn't call him fascist or a Nazi. I would call him a self-hating Jew and an antisemite. He doesn't like Jews. Look. Here's a kid from Brooklyn. He decides he's gonna solve the racial problems of the world. So where does he move from Brooklyn, which is a very diverse country—city with lots and lots of people of different color? He moves to Vermont where there are no black in order to save, the black community. He's a hypocrite, and he's a self-hating Jew. Yeah. You know? I have nothing but contempt for him. He's part of the problem.
00:12:44 Andrew Keen: Can one be, in theory, Alan, on the left of the Democratic Party and not be this antisemite, this proto-Nazi that you're imagining?
00:12:55 Alan Dershowitz: Imagining a proto-Nazi. I'm imagining anti-Zionists who have morphed into antisemitism, and the answer is no. You can't be a member of the Democratic Party and expect to win a primary in New York City even, certainly not in Michigan, if you're not anti-Israel and you're not anti-Zionist. No. You can't be a member of the Democratic Party. I think it was—I wrote an article about this that I thought the last pro-Israel Democratic president in modern history will probably be, the last president of the United States, Joe Biden. I don't think you can become the Democratic nominee for president if you're perceived of as in any way pro-Israel.
00:13:42 Andrew Keen: When you say in the subtitle of the new book And So Should You: Confessions of a Republican, a Reluctant Republican, are you writing for Jews or for everyone? Because not everyone, obviously if you're not Jewish, you may not care quite as much as you do.
00:13:57 Alan Dershowitz: No. I think you do. If you're an evangelical Christian, if you are a religious Catholic, and if you're just a decent person, you care about Jews. Jews are the most [unclear] in the history of humankind. The history of antisemitism goes back three thousand years, and it abated only for a very short period of time between the Holocaust and about the year 2000. And so whether you're Jewish or not, you should be very supportive of Israel, not necessarily of the current government of Israel. I'm talking about the very concept of the nation-state of the Jewish people. Look. If you believe New Zealand has the right to exist, then surely you have to believe Israel has the right to exist. New Zealand is about as old as Israel. New Zealand was settled by people who had no connection with the island. They were British. They had no—they were not the indigenous population. They murdered them out and created a fake treaty, and now they dominate the—So how can anybody believe in New Zealand's right to exist as a British Christian country and not believe in 3,000-year-old Israel's right to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people with this indigenous population having been Jews for three thousand years. It's just utter bigotry to distinguish between New Zealand and Israel, and yet many people do.
00:15:25 Andrew Keen: You describe yourself, Alan, as a reluctant Republican, but some people might be listening or watching and thinking to themselves, well, what about all the supposed antisemites or certainly great critics of Israel within on the right, Tucker Carlson, even JD Vance has been very critical of Israel. He accused them of manipulating US public opinion. So the Nazism, the antisemitism you see in the Democratic Party, don't you also see it on the right of the Republican Party?
00:15:59 Alan Dershowitz: Is that the Republicans have marginalized their antisemites. Today, obviously, President Trump has nothing to do with Tucker Carlson. I do not believe that JD Vance is an antisemite or even anti-Israel. I believe he's an America Firster who wants to see American interests. But he's been critical of the Israeli government as have I been, critical of the Israeli government, but I don't regard him in any way as an antisemite or an anti—I do regard Tucker Carlson, but Tucker Carlson has been marginalized. On the other hand, Hasan Piker has been welcomed into the Democratic Party, embraced. He supports. He campaigns for El-Sayed, and then El-Sayed, people like Chuck Schumer supporting him because they're so anxious to, get power as a majority leader of the Senate. So, no, I don't see a comparison between how the Democrats have dealt with their, antisemites and their anti-Zionists and how the Republicans have dealt with them. I'm much more supportive of how of what the Republicans have done. And I'm critical of, obviously, any anti-Zionist I [unclear] within the Republican Party, but I'm much happier with the way the Republicans have dealt with them.
00:17:15 Andrew Keen: Do you see any moral backbone in the Democratic Party? I mean, you mentioned that four Jews are running for president, and they're not shy about their identity.
00:17:23 Alan Dershowitz: They are shy about their identity. You don't see any of the Jews getting up and saying, I am a strong Zionist. I really support [Israel’s] right to defend itself. You see them kind of moving away gradually. They're not denying their Jewishness, but they're moving slightly away from what they would have said, ten or fifteen years ago. They understand that they can't get it. By the way, no Jew will be nominated by the Democrats. It just won't happen. There are too many Democrats who are antisemitic, just plain core old-fashioned antisemites. And that's why Josh, Shapiro didn't get the nomination. That may have cost them the election. Harris couldn't bring himself [as spoken: herself] to nominate a Jew. Now if Shapiro—
00:18:09 Andrew Keen: So are you saying that, Harris didn't choose Shapiro because he was Jewish?
00:18:16 Alan Dershowitz: Absolutely. 100%.
00:18:20 Andrew Keen: How do you know that?
00:18:21 Alan Dershowitz: What other reason could there be? He was the leading, Democrat. He would have turned Pennsylvania over Democrats. He was the most popular governor. What conceivable reason could there be, nominate a clown such as the guy who ultimately got the nomination, then to nominate probably the most powerful potential vice president, out there. There's no conceivable reason other than the fact that he was a Jew who didn't denounce Israel, that he didn't get the nomination.
00:18:55 Andrew Keen: Well, the standard view, at least out here in San Francisco, is that she didn't wanna be, eclipsed in any way by her vice president. So, I'm not sure whether that was because he was Jewish.
00:19:08 Alan Dershowitz: No. That was because he was Jewish, but that's not the reason she didn't do it. She would have been eclipsed by almost anybody. She's a nonentity, not particularly in influential or brilliant. If she had to pick somebody who would eclipse her, she had a, you know, a very small list to pick from. But, that's not the reason. She didn't pick her [as spoken: him] because he was Jewish and because he was a Jew who wouldn't renounce, Zionism. Only reason he didn't get picked.
00:19:35 Andrew Keen: I mean, if by some miracle, Alan, this whole situation in the Middle East and Israel was fixed overnight or within a minute, we snapped our fingers, and it went away, and it no longer was an issue in American politics. Could you come back to the Democratic Party? Is it conceivable to imagine the Democratic Party on the left post Israel?
00:19:58 Alan Dershowitz: I can't. I can't imagine it because of the issue of meritocracy. The Democrats are anti-meritocracy. Anti-meritocracy. Harris yesterday said, or maybe it was even today, but she said in the last couple of days that DEI and diversity, this whole, policy of, identity politics is bad for women and mothers. It's central to the Democratic Party to, end meritocracy, to judge ideas not by their merits, but by who said them, to judge candidates not by their merits, but by their race or gender or No. I could never join a party that was as anti-meritocratic as the Democrats regardless of what my religion or ethnicity might be.
00:20:50 Andrew Keen: I thought you were gonna say that, anti-meritocracy was a form of antisemitism. Is that what you're implying?
00:20:57 Alan Dershowitz: No. I am saying that I think Jews suffer disproportionately from the lack of meritocracy because Jews have been, among the most the beneficiaries of, meritocracy. Just take my own case. I grew up in a home. My parents my father didn't graduate high school. My mother went for one half of a semester to college. I succeeded based on my own merit. And, I have many friends who succeeded, friends who were Italian American, friends who were Irish American, friends who were black, who have succeeded based on meritocracy. But, certainly we're treated a meritocracy has been, the mechanism by which they have, succeeded. So, yes, I'm strongly in favor of meritocracy. I've written a book on it, and, we'll continue to fight for meritocracy and the Democrats are against meritocracy. So that's one of the reasons that I am no longer a Democrat.
00:21:59 Andrew Keen: What do you think your parents would think of you? You said you were brought up, by Claire and Harry Dershowitz. What would they make of your shift into the Republican Party?
00:22:09 Alan Dershowitz: Well, they'd wonder about it. They'd ask about it just the way my wife has and my children have, and my friends have, but we'd have a rational discussion. And maybe they'd persuade me, maybe I'd persuade them. We wouldn't be mad at each other. We wouldn't treat me the way Larry David originally treated me on the porch of the Chilmark store. By the way, we made up and we've become, friends again. So—
00:22:36 Andrew Keen: What did Larry David do?
00:22:38 Alan Dershowitz: Well, he, attacked me and, said he would never speak to me again when I, became, when I defended President Trump in his first impeachment. I wasn't even a Republican and I was still a Democrat, but, I was, a Democrat who, believed in the Constitution and didn't believe that Trump had committed an impeachable—
00:23:00 Andrew Keen: What do you make of the current Trump administration? I mean, I assume you think they're pro-Israel, but the recent polls in, certainly on CNN suggest they're increasingly unpopular, astonishingly unpopular, especially on economics, which was supposed to be, Trump's strongest suit. Do you think they're gonna get thrashed in the upcoming midterms?
00:23:25 Alan Dershowitz: They'll get thrashed in the House. I don't think we can predict the outcome of the Senate. But think of what will happen if, the senator from Maine, Collins, loses the election. There will not be a single member of Congress, House or Senate, who is a Republican in the entire New England. For the first time probably in American history, New England is 40 [unclear] Republican, and there won't be a single Republican member of Congress. And in the Senate, that would extend to New York and New Jersey, and, stops at Pennsylvania. But it means that, you know, the Democrats are controlling the Northeast, and disenfranchising, many, many Republicans no longer have a say in their governance. That's not the way the framers of the Constitution intended it to be. But, of course, with gerrymandering and all of that, we see politics enter into decisions about representation.
00:24:35 Andrew Keen: If that's the case, we'll at least in the argument you make in Why I Quit the Dems, will New England vote against the Jews? Is that the conclusion you would make?
00:24:49 Alan Dershowitz: They already have. New England has voted almost unanimously against aid to Israel, including aid for, Iron Dome, which is completely defensive. So, New England has almost universally—since Joe Lieberman, died, New England has voted almost exclusively against aid to Israel, including defensive aid, including on the [Iron] Dome, which only protects civilians against terrorist attacks. So, yeah, that would happen.
00:25:25 Andrew Keen: You're a very good arguer, Alan. I'm not gonna start arguing about Israel because it gets very boring. But can one, as a Jew, be critical of Israel and not be an antisemite or what you call a self-hating Jew like Bernie Sanders?
00:25:43 Alan Dershowitz: Yeah. I'm critical of Israel. I'm critical of Netanyahu. I'm critical of Ben-Gvir. I'm critical of Smotrich. I'm critical of the Likud Party. But what [unclear] is the right of the Jewish people, to have a state on land, which they have been the indigenous population of for three thousand years. That is antisemitism. That's international antisemitism. When you single out only the Jews and say every other people in the world can have a—the British people of New Zealand can have a state in New Zealand 10,000 miles away from where [they] came from, but the Jews who come from, what is now Israel, can't have a state, where the indigenous—that's antisemitism. Yeah.
00:26:32 Andrew Keen: You're a very experienced lawyer. We've done many shows on the legal and moral dimensions of what some people see as genocide in Gaza. What do you make of that argument? Is anyone who uses the word the g word genocide when it comes to Israeli behavior in Gaza? Are they just examples of antisemites?
00:26:57 Alan Dershowitz: They're not only antisemites. They're ignoramuses, and they're liars. There is no country in modern history that has been less genocidal than Israel. Israel has the best—
00:27:07 Andrew Keen: Even the New Zealanders?
00:27:09 Alan Dershowitz: Even New Zealand. New Zealand fought [unclear] NATO. NATO had a much worse record than Israel. Israel has the best record in the history of modern warfare of reducing civilian casualties in relation to terrorists and other casualties, particularly in wars in which the terrorists hidden by the terrorist organizations in, the middle of population centers. So there's no country in the world less genocidal, than Israel. Israel has gone great lengths to, inoculate the population of, Gaza to protect from, military minimize civilian casualties. And when the best is called the worst, then you have to look at the people doing the calling. And, yes, they're antisemites, they're liars, and they're bigots. Anybody who uses the genocide term against Israel deserves to be called a bigot and an antisemite and a liar, and I will continue to do that.
00:28:10 Andrew Keen: Even characters you brought them up like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, who you're not keen on? They're not genocidal in some of their language or intent?
00:28:20 Alan Dershowitz: There are people in Israel who have used terrible language, but that's true of people of almost every country. And there's government of Israel, the government of Israel speaks through Ben-Gurion, when spoke through Ben-Gurion, spoke through Golda Meir, spoke through, Yitzhak Rabin, now speaks through Netanyahu. You can not like Netanyahu. I'm gonna be meeting with them at the United Nations. But the idea of nation of Israel, of the army of Israel, the IDF, which is the most moral army, in the world today and takes more precautions and sacrifices more of its own soldiers and civilians in an attack, civilians on the other side. Calling them genocidal is just there's no excuse for it. It's pure antisemitism, pure bigotry, and pure malicious lying.
00:29:12 Andrew Keen: Again, I've asked this before, but I'm not entirely clear. Why are all these people so against the Jews?
00:29:18 Alan Dershowitz: I hear so many people against the Jews since the beginning of history. Why do so many people say that you killed Jesus? Why do so many people say that the Jews poisoned the wells? Why did so many people say that the Jews caused, the Black Death? Why has there been such a long history of antisemitism? Ask that question to the antisemites. Don't ask that question to the Jews. We're not responsible for the bigotry of two, three thousand years of antisemitic history, which had a very short period where it ended between the Holocaust in 1945 and about 2000. But the other than those years, antisemitism has been a constant in the history of the world. It's been a constant in the history—
00:30:03 Andrew Keen: But what I mean, I'm not suggesting you're justify you should obviously, you're not gonna justify it, but you've given this a great deal of thought. It's clearly, you're remarkably passionate about this subject, Alan. You must have given it some thought. Why? It could be against the Indians or the Muslims or the Christians. Why is it always the Jews in your mind?
00:30:24 Alan Dershowitz: Well, you know, that's the question itself smacks of antisemitism. Why the Jews? Why are people—
00:30:31 Andrew Keen: But you're the one who's said it. I'm not justifying. I'm just asking you why.
00:30:37 Alan Dershowitz: It's a historical fact. Nobody will dispute that historical fact. There's never been a hatred more pervasive and more long-lasting than the hatred against Jews. Second was probably the hatred against blacks. You might ask the question, why do people dislike blacks? Why do people dislike gays? You can ask all of those questions. That doesn't excuse the fact that there's a long, long history of antisemitism, that, emanates from the church. It emanates from racism. You know, Hitler's antisemitism was different than the Inquisition. The Inquisition was church oriented. Hitler's antisemitism was racial. It was based on the claim that Jews are racially inferior to be have to be, destroyed. And so, the question isn't why, has there been so much antisemitism to be asked of the Jews, or asked of me? The question is ask the antisemites why they have had such a long history of hatred toward one group, toward the Jews. You know, there was a famous folk singer in the nineteen seventies who wrote a song called “National Brotherhood Week” [ed.: Tom Lehrer, a satirist rather than a folk singer; the song dates from 1965], and it ends by saying, you know, the Catholics hates the Protestants and this everybody hates the Jews. So, you know, the question is why is it because Jews, have been successful in some parts of the world? Is it because Jews have been poor in other parts of the world? Remember, Jews are attacked for everything. If they're too far left, they're attacked as being communist. If they're too far right, they're attacked as being capitalists. If they're too rich, they're attacked as being too rich, too poor. There's always an excuse and a reason, for it, but it doesn't justify the long history of antisemitism, and I've devoted part of my life to fighting against that most of my life. By the way, I fought against other forms of bigotry, bigotry against blacks, bigotry against women, bigotry against gays, against transgenders. Now my priorities are bigotry against Jews because, antisemitism has once again reared its ugly head as it did for three thousand years.
00:32:55 Andrew Keen: But if you don't explain it, then we can't get rid of it. I mean, I assume you don't think you hope at least that in your reading, at least, it can be somehow one day eradicated. Yes. Or are you just assuming that it's this, for one reason or other, some sort of universal emotion that can never be got rid of that defines world history in some way or another?
00:33:20 Alan Dershowitz: Well, it had gotten rid of. It took a holocaust to get rid of it. It killed 6,000,000 Jews. Then for the next [unclear] years, you will become philo-Semitic. That's what happened. But, I'm not trying to explain it. I'm trying to defeat it. I'm trying to destroy it. You know, aspirin, you know, nobody understands how aspirin works to reduce, fever, but we know it works. We know there are cancer drugs, and we're not sure how they work, but we know that the can be addressed and the evil of antisemitism can be addressed. Look. Would you defend the claim that, Jews poisoned the wells, killed people with their blood? That's what was going on in the world. People were saying that little children murdered by Jews so that their blood could be used and baked into matzah. We know that wasn't true. And do you need an explanation for that? They should just hate bigotry. And I'm gonna fight that whether I can explain it, to you or not.
00:34:22 Andrew Keen: Well, you are explaining it. You're saying it's bigotry. Can bigotry be changed?
00:34:27 Alan Dershowitz: It can be—it can be fought. It can be fought, in many ways, depending on what form the bigotry takes. If it takes the form of Nazism, it can be destroyed, militarily. If it takes the form of, legal discrimination, it can be fought legally, which I've done for many years. So it depends on the manifestation. Yes. It can be. It can be and should be and must be fought.
00:34:54 Andrew Keen: You mentioned earlier that your wife and your kids don't always agree with you. You must have some interesting, dinner conversations.
00:35:03 Alan Dershowitz: We do, but we try to keep our dinner, calm. For example, on Thanksgiving dinner, we don't talk about these issues or for, our dinners for Jewish New Year's and things of that kind. We talk about family, but we do talk about politics and, we agree to disagree. And, sometimes they get me to change my mind. Sometimes I get them to change my mind [as spoken]. We have a great family and we love each other and we love arguing with each other.
00:35:33 Andrew Keen: So what's their take that you're you've become a little hyper single-issue?
00:35:40 Alan Dershowitz: Well, I think they understand that. I've always been, in favor when the underdogs were black, I devoted my time to going south and fighting for African Americans. When the underdogs were women, I fought for them. When the underdogs were gays, now the underdogs are Jews. So it's the most natural thing in the world. I would continue my fight for the underdog and this time manifested through, fighting against, antisemitism.
00:36:09 Andrew Keen: So are you saying that the Jews are the new blacks?
00:36:13 Alan Dershowitz: No. I'm saying the Jews are in a much worse position than the blacks today. That, the trend is in favor of black equality, whereas the trend is against Jewish. So Jews are in a worse position today than African Americans or gays or women. They are the most discriminated group in the world today, and that's why I'm prioritizing my, interests in their equality.
00:36:39 Andrew Keen: Do you think most American Jews agree with you that the vast majority still vote for the Democratic Party?
00:36:47 Alan Dershowitz: At the moment, they do, and I'm trying to change that. That's why the title of my book is, Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You. I wanna see, more Jews quit the Democratic Party. I had been around so long ago [unclear] with President Trump, and with the Emir of Qatar, and we were talking about the Abraham Accords. And President Trump asked me a question directly. He said, why don't your people vote for me? And I said, Mr. President, I don't have any people. And second of all, I have a variety of, interests. They care about gay rights. They care about the environment. They have the economy. And so, of course, you're gonna get Jews, who vote, Democrat. Look, 7,000 Jews voted for Hitler in the 1932 election. There was a whole party formed of Jews for Hitler in the 1932 election. And you know what happened to most of those Jews? Obviously, they didn't survive the Holocaust. So, you know, you get foolish Jews who don't vote their own interests, and you get some who do and many who strike a balance. And we're seeing a little bit of a change in Great Britain, in Canada, in Australia, in New Zealand, in the United States, party affiliation. In all of those countries, the Jews overwhelmingly voted for the left. Now they're more to the center and some are moving more to center right. None of them that I know of are extreme right, but, we're seeing a movement, of Jewish voters and that's understandable.
00:38:19 Andrew Keen: You brought up the UK. I know quite a lot of British Jews are leaving, because they fear what's happening in the country. Are we close to a point in the United States, Alan, where your advice to American Jews would be to leave this country?
00:38:36 Alan Dershowitz: No. No. I'm gonna fight back. I'm gonna tell everybody to fight back, but I've said switch parties. That's a big deal. But [unclear], it's my country. My grandfather came here in, 1887. We've been here more than half the history of the country. I am as American as, any native-born Mayflower descendant. So, no, I'm not leaving America. Staying and fighting for what I think is best for America and best for my people within America.
00:39:08 Andrew Keen: But couldn't you make the same thing argument about the Democratic Party that if what you're saying is true, American Jews should stay within the Democratic Party to save its soul?
00:39:21 Alan Dershowitz: That's good. And if you think there's a future of the Democratic Party as my children do, you stay in the party. If you're not sure about it, you do what my wife did. You become an independent. If you're pretty sure about it, as I am, you leave the Democratic Party or you recognize that the Democratic Party has left you when you join the Republican Party. So one size does not fit all. Although I am—my book, Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You, is a book of advocacy. I am hoping that people will leave, the Democratic Party. The book was endorsed by President Trump. He wrote a very strong endorsement for the book, but obviously, he has an interest in making sure that my readers, leave the Democratic Party. But, I wrote this book to give my readers options and choices and, information in order to let them make wise decisions as to whether to stay and leave. But there isn't a word in the book about leaving America. And I can't imagine myself writing a book in which I would urge people to leave America. I'm too old for that myself. I'm 88 years old, but I can't imagine even if I were a young man, wanting to leave America. America is, has been the greatest country for Jews. It's been the greatest country in general. People vote with their feet. More people wanna come to America. Fewer people wanna leave America. So with all its flaws, America is a great, great country, and I wanna devote the rest of my life to making it an even greater country.
00:40:50 Andrew Keen: You've been very generous with your time, Alan. Couple more brief questions. You've worked for some dodgy characters, including Mike Tyson, Julian Assange. You're currently involved with people accused of sex trafficking. Would you ever work as a lawyer for an antisemite?
00:41:12 Alan Dershowitz: Oh, I have on many occasions. I, helped defend the Nazis who marched in Skokie. When, Yasser Arafat died and the Palestinian students wanted to put up a Palestinian flag at Harvard Yard and Harvard refused to allow them to do it. The Palestinian came to me and asked me if I would defend them. I did, and I got them to be able to fly the Canadian [as spoken: Palestinian] flag, in Harvard Yard. And I came to the event and I spoke against Yasser Arafat, and it was a wonderful day for free speech. The Palestinian flag was flying. Dershowitz was talking against Arafat. People were talking in favor of Arafat. That's the Harvard I love where you could have debate and controversy. I don't think that could happen today. I think today there'd be violence.
00:41:59 Andrew Keen: Finally, you knew Jeffrey Epstein. In fact, I think a House panel is seeking testimony from you about him. He—
00:42:10 Alan Dershowitz: Oh, I [unclear] testified. I volunteered.
00:42:12 Andrew Keen: Oh, you volunteered. So you knew Jeffrey. I mean, he's obviously not a typical Jew in any way, but should Jews be a little careful about how they behave given the history of antisemitism?
00:42:25 Alan Dershowitz: Everybody should be careful the way they behave. Nobody should behave like Jeffrey Epstein, but I don't think Jeffrey Epstein thought of himself as a Jew. He was just a hedonist, who did terrible, terrible things and, was punished for it and ended up killing himself. I don't think that I don't see him as a Jew. I see him as a terrible human being, who did terrible things. And I did defend him as his lawyer. Cause I defend everybody. I defend people who are guilty. I defend people who are innocent. I think of myself as in the spirit of John Adams who defended the Bostonian, Boston soldiers, the redcoats who were accused of the Boston Massacre. I think of myself in the spirit of Abraham Lincoln who defended, many, many guilty people. That's part of the American system that you defend people whether they're guilty or innocent. You don't like them. You don't, join them, in any way. I would—once I defended Jeffrey Epstein, I terminated my relationship with him and he hated me. He thought I was a terrible lawyer. I was not, it was a pretty good lawyer. I got him a good deal. He didn't think so, but, I will continue to represent people I disagree with, including antisemites and bigots and racists. That's the role of a lawyer under the Sixth Amendment to the American Constitution.
00:43:49 Andrew Keen: How do you want finally, Alan, how do you want people to think of you? A lot of people are gonna be watching this if they didn't know much about you. Think this guy talks a lot about being Jewish and the Jewish issue and antisemitism. Do you wanna be thought of in this book about quitting the Dems as a Jew? Are you writing as a lawyer, as a moralist, as a human being? What's the one word that you would like to be associated with the name of Alan Dershowitz?
00:44:16 Alan Dershowitz: All of the above. But if you said I could only pick one thing, I would say I was a proudly Jewish, American.
00:44:23 Andrew Keen: Well, that's two word.
00:44:25 Alan Dershowitz: I'm proudly Jewish. And I know I'll always be Jewish. I hope I'll always be American. I think I'll always be American, but, I'm proud of my Jewish heritage. I'm proud of my American. I'm proud of liberalism. I'm proud of my libertarianism. I'm proud of my life. As Frank Sinatra, said in his song My Way, mistakes, you know, I've made, we all have. But you learn to live with those, and you learn to improve from them.
00:44:55 Andrew Keen: Well, maybe we can make an exception and call proudly Jewish. We can combine the two words and make it one word. Is that fair, Alan? Well, thank you. Wonderful conversation. Fascinating new book. Not everyone, of course, will agree. Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You: Confessions of a Reluctant Republican. One thing one can say about Alan Dershowitz is he's not shy. Alan, love to get you back on the show. Lots more to talk about, and best of luck and congratulations with the new book.
00:45:24 Alan Dershowitz: Thank you so much. You know, my wife says that on my tombstone, it'll say never boring. So, I hope I satisfy that criteria of never boring. And, I would like to continue to live an interesting life and a confrontational and provocative life. That's who I am.
00:45:44 Andrew Keen: Well, tell your wife I'll create a new word, never boring, as well as proudly Jew [unclear]. Alan Dershowitz, thank you so much.