Life of the Party: Joe Cunningham on How Democrats Lost America’s Trust and How They Can Win It Back

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It is May 28, a Thursday. We're a few weeks away from America's 250th anniversary, and we're continuing our theme of thinking about America in the present and the future. Yesterday, we did a show where a professor at Harvard Law School called America unfinished. Alexandra Natapoff talked about one kind of racial or economic or cultural injustice or another, speaking very much, I think, for the elites on the East Coast from Harvard Law, one of the bastions of democratic — some people think of as woke — politics. Today we've got a very different kind of Democrat. Joe Cunningham is a lawyer based in Charleston, South Carolina, a one-term US representative, and the author of a new book on the Democratic Party called Life of the Party: How Democrats Lost America's Trust and How They Can Win It Back. Joe is joining us from Charleston, South Carolina. Joe, what are you gonna be doing on July 4?

00:01:44 Joe Cunningham: Probably celebrating. Probably celebrating America.

00:01:48 Andrew Keen: How will you be celebrating?

00:01:50 Joe Cunningham: Yeah, I've got my third kid arriving on July 16. I say "kid" because we don't know if it's a boy or girl. So it's gonna be hot here in Charleston. Andrew, I don't know if you've visited, but it's scorching hot weather here in July. So I'll probably be by a beach or by a pool, with a beer in my hand, and my eye on the clock waiting for this baby to arrive.

00:02:18 Andrew Keen: Joe, I'm sure you saw there was a piece yesterday in the Washington Post. Americans don't like either political party, and the Post asked why. And there's lots of criticism of the Democratic Party — too liberal, too woke. Your book, in some senses, is an on-the-ground, front-row analysis of the Dems. You've been doing the rounds on national TV. I heard you on the weekend on one of CNN's big shows. What's the problem? What's gone wrong with the Democratic Party? As I said, you're not just some guy with an opinion. You're a one-time congressman. You know certainly the Southern Democratic Party as well as anybody.

00:03:02 Joe Cunningham: As you mentioned in the intro, Andrew, I'm not cut from the cloth of Harvard. Harvard was my backup school, my safety school. As you mentioned, I've been on the —

00:03:12 Andrew Keen: Join the crowd, Joe.

00:03:13 Joe Cunningham: Right, right, right. Well, I went on this weekend on MS Now and talked about that. There's a lot of — first of all, there's a lot of room to be hopeful for the life of the Democratic Party in this environment, and how friendly it is for the generic Democrat to win. I think they have, you know, a D+11 advantage. The bad news is, as you mentioned, the Democratic brand is so toxic for reasons the Washington Post and others — which, you know, I find it ironic that some of these more liberal outlets have to go in and dig this out. But my book is told from on the ground, a lifelong Southern Democrat that has watched family and friends drift apart from the Democratic Party for a myriad of reasons, which I outline. And I deliver it with the credibility of having won a district that Trump carried by 13 points. And not only how to speak to these voters, but how to win them back as well.

00:04:15 Andrew Keen: It's interesting, Joe. Your book didn't get picked up by one of the big publishers, in contrast with a lot of other people's books, which are perhaps just as credible. Do you think one reason why the Dems are in crisis, why people don't trust them — particularly what you think of, I guess, as mainstream Americans — is because big media, big publishing is controlled by progressive Democrats?

00:04:45 Joe Cunningham: Yeah. I think that there's a lot of hesitancy. In fact, I was even told as much, to pick up something like this. It's overly critical, not just of former president Biden, former vice president Harris, but the Democratic Party and how that escalated back in 2024 and breached America's trust with the party. I also think it speaks louder to a lack of self-reflection within the Democratic Party. And, Andrew, you know, we can have a conversation about Trump and Republicans, etcetera — all those things are gonna be —

00:05:25 Andrew Keen: When I — when I mention the T-word, Joe, I'm bored with him.

00:05:29 Joe Cunningham: He's yesterday's —

00:05:30 Andrew Keen: — news.

00:05:31 Joe Cunningham: So all those things have been well litigated. What I wanna focus on, what I've done with this book, is focus on how the Democratic Party can improve itself without simply attacking this administration, as it has for the last ten years — and where has it gotten us but President Trump elected twice.

00:05:51 Andrew Keen: As I said — and I don't mean to pick on Harvard Law School, although, of course, we all do — the book that we dealt with yesterday, America Unfinished, which was edited by a professor there, Alexandra Natapoff, analyzes America, I think, as an arc of — Martin Luther King, of course, famously said that the arc of history naturally bends toward justice and saw America as a reflection of that, as a march toward racial and sexual and gendered and economic injustice of one kind or another. Do you think that's the right way to think about America?

00:06:30 Joe Cunningham: I think that every nation struggles with their own issues. And there's racism, sexism, and discrimination in all corners of the Earth. As we come up on the 250th anniversary of this country, it's important to remember this is a great country, Andrew. We're not perfect by any means. And it's easy to get mired down and dragged down into all the negative aspects of it, but it's still an incredible place to live. We still have incredible freedoms, and the focus should be on how to improve upon it as opposed to focusing only on the negatives.

00:07:09 Andrew Keen: You're talking to me from Charleston, South Carolina, of course, one of the hearts of the Confederacy. Has America got over the Civil War, Joe? A lot of people in the North and perhaps in the West, especially the coastal elite, seem to think that we're still relitigating or even fighting the Civil War.

00:07:32 Joe Cunningham: No, I think we're long past it. I mean, I think you have a lot of discussions being had regarding federalism, among conservatives and among Democrats, and what power the administration, the executive branch, the federal government should have. And those conversations are gonna continue. You know, the remnants of the Civil War and the racism and discrimination — there are pieces of that, obviously, that still exist, which we're trying to overcome and trying to pass along a country that's in better shape to our kids. But we've come a long way. We've come a real long way. And, again, for our country to have made it through it in the first place and held together is a feat in and of itself.

00:08:22 Andrew Keen: Some people might dispute that. You say we've come a long way, but down the road from you in Charleston, South Carolina — of course, in Charlottesville, Virginia, there was a neo-Nazi march a few years ago, resulted in somebody dying, people waving the neo-Nazi flag, lots of overt racism and embrace of the Confederacy. Is that just a few weirdos, a few radicals, a few crazies, Joe?

00:08:51 Joe Cunningham: Yeah, you've seen a trend of that overseas as well — over in Europe. I was over in Germany during their last election a couple of years ago, and the rise of the far right over there. There are certain groups that have a little bit of movement or traction, but I don't think it fits into the mainstream or is even close to it. The majority of the country, I think, has moved past that, and occasionally you get little blips like that. They come up. But overall, I think we're moving in the right direction.

00:09:29 Andrew Keen: That's good to know. The book is called Life of the Party — not the parties. It's a book about the Democrats. How would you — you've got young kids, I know. In fact, you've got a very, very cute picture of you and your son on your X profile. You've got another one coming up in July. How would you describe the Democratic Party to your kids, to somebody who doesn't know much about politics? Why are they different from the Republicans?

00:09:58 Joe Cunningham: So the first chapter of this book kind of establishes how I grew up in the Democratic Party and what the Democratic Party used to do for working-class Americans. It's a party of big ideas going back to FDR, which established the New Deal, which established the Tennessee Valley Authority that dammed up rivers and created jobs and cheap hydroelectric power. And I talked about this in the first chapter — when FDR came along, Western Kentucky, which is where I grew up, Western Tennessee, they're some of the most impoverished areas of some of the most impoverished states in the country. And his policies, his big ideas, were able to lift people up. And I think the Democratic Party in recent years — apathy has taken hold, and it really hasn't thought in terms of big ideas, big policies, what can be done. The party has been focused more on equal outcome as opposed to equal opportunity, giving people a level playing field and letting it go from there. I want the party to get back to fighting for everyday Americans. And that starts with being able to speak to them. And, you know, I don't know how your show went yesterday with your Harvard professor, but you've gotta be able to speak to people on their own level and in language that they embrace, and not speak at them and not talk down to them. I think the Democratic Party, rightfully so, has become branded as the party of the elites that speak down to voters, and I'm trying to change that. I'm just doing what I can.

00:11:42 Andrew Keen: You talk about a reckoning rather than a rerun. You mentioned FDR, of course — an extremely wealthy scion of an incredibly powerful East Coast family. Didn't he talk down? Hasn't that, for better or worse, always been the history of the party, from FDR through to JFK?

00:12:02 Joe Cunningham: I don't know. You look at people like President Bill Clinton, coming from Arkansas, speaking in plain words, plain language, matter-of-fact tone. You know, Jimmy Carter. President Obama's obviously a bit more polished and had that more Ivy League edge to him.

00:12:26 Andrew Keen: Yeah, Harvard Law.

00:12:29 Joe Cunningham: Yeah, yeah. And then you have Trump come along, who speaks in very direct, matter-of-fact — I wouldn't describe it as eloquent, but effective, yes, in terms of communication and how easily ideas can be communicated. You look — Andrew, you know this. You can have the best ideas in the world, but if you're not able to package them and communicate them in a way that people digest and embrace, it doesn't matter.

00:12:59 Andrew Keen: You mentioned Bill Clinton, who is a very divisive figure. Some people still revere him. Others, both on the left and the right, loathe the guy. You mentioned FDR. Some people's critique of Bill Clinton is that he basically destroyed the New Deal — the New Deal state that FDR and then Truman and LBJ built. What is it about Clinton that we should admire? Why is he, in your view at least, or you seem to suggest, a lesson in rebuilding the Democratic Party?

00:13:35 Joe Cunningham: He built a larger coalition for the Democratic Party. And, again, I mean, this is just my own bias as a lifelong Southerner — having a Democrat that can win south of the Mason-Dixon line is always impressive. It seems like the Democratic strongholds have retreated up to New England or to the coast. So, again, I just approach it from a different angle, of being a lifelong Democrat in a state that is nearly impossible to win. I'm sitting here in South Carolina, which is one of, I think, five states that have straight-ticket voting, Andrew. [AK: SC abolished straight-ticket voting in 2022 — worth double-checking before publication.] And that means you walk into the voting booth and you can select all Democrat, all Republican, and it auto-populates your entire ballot, from president all the way down to dog catcher. People walk out in fifteen seconds. It's state-sponsored partisanship. And when the Democratic brand has become so toxic, people just go in, vote straight ticket, walk out, and not even give you the benefit of being selected or not.

00:14:42 Andrew Keen: You mentioned the toxicity of the Democratic Party. A lot of people associate that with — I think most people would agree with this — the failed presidency of Joe Biden and certainly the failed candidacy of Kamala Harris. What's your analysis of the role of both Biden and Harris in this current crisis of the Democratic Party?

00:15:06 Joe Cunningham: I talk a lot about this in the book. And the book's not just about 2024, but everything that leads up to it. At the end of the day, what happened in 2024 is at the feet of former president Joe Biden and his decision to continue, which I spoke out against. In fact, I was believed to be the first Democrat to go on national TV to say that he should not run for reelection. I did that when I was running for governor here in South Carolina back in 2022, I believe. And that decision to move forward, and the absence of people speaking out against it, ultimately led to the debate performance, which then led to the coronation of vice president Harris without giving Democrats the ability to weigh in and to actually vote within a primary. All these things kind of snowballed, to chip away at the credibility and the trust of the Democratic Party. And so when the Democratic Party later on runs under a banner — and I talk about this in the book — of "defend democracy" or "save democracy," people were saying, hold on a second. You all didn't have a primary election to fill president Biden's shoes. It really erodes the credibility of that message and hurts the party further on down the line too.

00:16:40 Andrew Keen: There seems to be an apocalyptic atmosphere, at least culturally, not just on the right, but on the left. Does that concern you, the idea that America — it's never appeared to me to be the case, but — America's on its last legs, the fascists are around the corner, America's about to be destroyed. Do you think that's a convenient or rather lazy way of thinking about America?

00:17:07 Joe Cunningham: I think it'd be both. You know, when you sensationalize everything, nothing is sensational. And it's important to look at the people who are profiting — the groups and media outlets that are profiting off that division. Every election is the most consequential election of our lifetime, and it goes segment after segment after segment. And, you know, I've gone on news shows today where they talk about all kinds of things that certain people are outraged by, which in the grand scheme of things are not that outrageous. But yes, it's a big problem, and it's driving the divisive nature that exists in our country.

00:17:49 Andrew Keen: Your book is very much, if not an autobiography, a book written or built around your own success. You describe yourself as a coastal Democrat who built a coalition the experts said couldn't exist. I mean, that's from you, but what exactly do you claim to have done, and why is that a model for reinventing, revitalizing the Democratic Party?

00:18:17 Joe Cunningham: Well, it's not just words of mine — I put this in the book — but the Post and Courier called it the greatest upset in South Carolina in a generation. So being the first Democrat to flip this seat in forty years was no easy task, and getting Republican mayors to endorse my campaign was no easy task. It's something that doesn't exist a lot in today's politics. It was also, obviously, a great environment in 2018, and it put districts like mine within striking distance, within reach. I was fortunate enough, Andrew, to come up to serve with an incredible group of freshman lawmakers that won tough races. You had Kendra Horn out in Oklahoma. You had Anthony Brindisi in a conservative area in New York. You had Ben McAdams in Salt Lake City. A lot of talented folks, some of whom just stepped into politics for the very first time.

00:19:23 Andrew Keen: It's interesting in that Washington Post poll. There seem to be two critiques of the Democratic Party, which are kind of, in my view at least, incompatible. On the one hand, there's the classic problem of the Dems being too woke. On the other hand, they're too wishy-washy. What's your take? I mean, what did you do in South Carolina that escaped being either — I know you're not a woke guy, but also being wishy-washy and speaking the language of what you call the American working class, which often sounds to me to be very vague. How do you avoid — let me rephrase the question. Because you're not a woke guy, and I know you're not particularly friendly to that wing of the party, how do you speak to, quote unquote, working-class Americans, which tend to be white Americans, without being wishy-washy?

00:20:27 Joe Cunningham: I think telling people where you stand and why you stand there is critical, number one. That's the first point I wanna make. Because even if people don't agree with you, they at least understand your position. I think that's something that vice president Harris suffered from — that people really didn't know what she stood for, and others think she may not have either.

00:20:52 Andrew Keen: Yeah, and I'd second that. My wife is friendly with her crowd. I sometimes wonder whether they knew, let alone us.

00:20:59 Joe Cunningham: Yeah. And, again, you can tie it back to this — there's an era of just not wanting to offend anybody, no matter what the group is. It's okay to disagree. It's okay that we don't see eye to eye on this particular issue. But at the end of the day, voters at least want to have a good idea of knowing where you stand, even if they don't agree with you. So that's point number one. I'd say connecting with people here in the South and in South Carolina — it's pushing a boulder up a hill by running as a Democrat in a conservative area. You have to show some streak of independence and how you don't fit into the mold, and that you may disagree with your party in certain aspects. And so finding those areas and illustrating those, I think, gives you some credibility with independent-minded folks, or even people who may tend to lean conservative. But doing it in a genuine and honest way and then following through, I think, is helpful for anybody trying to win in a conservative area as a Democrat.

00:22:10 Andrew Keen: But is this a manner, Joe? Does this involve you sitting down in bars and diners and talking to people, like Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter were very good at doing? Or does it really rest on policy — on breaking some of the taboos? I know you have some strong feelings on the immigration issue and the way it's been misunderstood within, or incorrectly, at least politically, pursued in the Democratic Party. Is it a leadership issue? Is it a policy issue? Or can't you separate these two things?

00:22:46 Joe Cunningham: I think it's both. However, I think we have to — you can't put the cart in front of the horse, because just like any other relationship, Andrew — friendship or whatever — if you don't trust the person you're speaking with, or if you don't have a good feeling or a good sense, then you may not be inclined to follow them in their persuasive argument. So I think first comes reestablishing that trust and being credible, because you're not gonna be able to lead people or sell people on policies or ideas unless they have a gut feeling that you're somewhat credible or they can believe you on those issues of policy. I mean, it's easy to get mired down in policy ideas and ten-point plans, but I think the most important part is being a credible source of information.

00:23:42 Andrew Keen: And in a place like Charleston, of course, the heart of the old South, the heart in some ways of the new South, can one, Joe, be a new politician and escape race? Was Obama or even Clinton — were they mirages, or can we reestablish a biracial coalition of both blacks and whites who believe in reform?

00:24:08 Joe Cunningham: I think we can. I just don't agree that it can be engineered. I think it has to come naturally and authentically. I mean, President Obama wasn't elected first and foremost because he's a Black man. He was selected by Democrats because he was the most encouraging and inspiring and the most talented. And so you look back at vice president Harris and her selection of a vice — when she became the presidential nominee, her selection of the vice president was driven by race and gender. Everybody would say, oh, she has to pick a white male because we have these buckets to go after. And I think the party in the past, Andrew, has been too focused on dividing the electorate up into subgroups. These are Black voters. These are white voters. These are college-educated, and these are non-college-educated. And then speaking to them on different levels, as opposed to putting out a broad message and not attempting to divide people — because politics is a science of addition, not division.

00:25:17 Andrew Keen: Has it become, though, Joe, too much of a science? Are the scientists, the political — the social scientists — in charge of these campaigns of Biden and, particularly, it would seem, of Harris, are they led by election experts who really are clueless about how politics really works in this country?

00:25:41 Joe Cunningham: I mean, look, nobody bats a thousand, right? I do think that there is an outsized impact that those in the industry have. I mean, you look at my friend, former congressman Dean Phillips, who attempted to primary Joe Biden in the Democratic primary. And because of party insiders, he was kept off the ballot in several states, which is, you know, one of those anti-democratic things you can do. And I talk about this in my book, Life of the Party — how it should have been more open and honest and transparent. And if a robust primary had occurred, maybe we would have repaired somebody's faults a lot sooner. And if in fact 2024 was the most consequential election of our lifetime and we would have to do anything to defeat Trump, then maybe we should have been more honest about why we are putting president Biden forward and believe that he was our best chance — when two-thirds of Democrats themselves, forget about the majority of Americans, but two-thirds of Democrats said they thought he was too old to run for a second term.

00:26:51 Andrew Keen: We have a show coming up with a Yale historian, Samuel Moyn, on gerontocracy in America. I know you've got some quite radical ideas on how to address, quote unquote, gerontocracy in America. I couldn't agree with you more, by the way. I think it's a critically important issue. I know on your first day in Congress, you voted against Nancy Pelosi, so you're not shy or afraid to take on the gerontocrats. What's happened, Joe, with this gerontocracy? Why do we have such old people, such feeble people like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden running the Democratic Party?

00:27:31 Joe Cunningham: Look, I think it's a number of reasons, but put simply, it's hard to take the keys away from your parents. When your aging parents get older and you have to convince them not to drive at night and to be more responsible, it's hard to convince these leaders to give up power. They like the press calling them around and asking questions. They like the black SUVs that swoop in. They like the attention. To ask them to voluntarily give that up is a lot to ask. More or less, the people who benefit off that, whether it be the consultants or the staff whose living is contingent upon that person or that individual staying in power. And secondly, we have a system that makes it very difficult to remove incumbents. We have gerrymandered our country up so that 90% plus is uncompetitive in the general election. So the only thing you've gotta do is make it to the primary. So ousting a long-term incumbent with millions and millions of dollars in the bank is no easy feat — more or less even getting on the ballot in some respects. So there are a number of reasons that benefit incumbents, but — long answer, short question — we need to be having an honest conversation, because it has impacted not just 2024 but beyond. You look at — I talk about this in the book — the Big Beautiful Bill, which Democrats argue ripped health care away from millions of Americans, passed by a single vote in the House chamber. And at the time, there were two Democratic seats that were vacant because those two members had passed away while in office. So we can't pretend like this is just a Joe Biden problem. It's a problem in our House of Representatives, and it's a problem on our United States Supreme Court, as we saw with Justice Ginsburg. It's a problem at the White House. It's a problem at all levels.

00:29:38 Andrew Keen: Yeah. It's really surprising and in many ways demoralizing that someone like Ginsburg, whom everyone adores, turned into this heroic figure on the court, should herself fall into this trap. All these people — I mean, even Joe Biden was once young, presumably, although he probably was born rather middle-aged. Why don't these people have memories of being young, of understanding that politics is about transition and not just maintaining their own power? Do they believe in themselves literally, or are they just purely self-interested and willing to cling on to the limos and the fancy dinners and the expense account?

00:30:27 Joe Cunningham: I think that they're probably victims of their own success, and you or I may be in the exact same position if we had served for that long. There's a point where — I think that most politicians, if not everyone, get so far into the bubble, they become disconnected with how the rest of the country operates, and they're further insulated by their own staff. And we saw this with former president Biden, who has staff and pollsters who are telling him exactly what he wants to hear, even though it runs counter to the reality. And so they're really very insulated from the rest of the world.

00:31:12 Andrew Keen: Where were you? I remember exactly where I was, Joe, when I saw that first Biden-Trump debate. I was actually at a Braver Angels conference in Wisconsin with Democrats and Republicans trying to get together. And there was this shock that the president of the United States should be so self-evidently out to lunch. Do you remember where you were and what you thought when you saw that debate?

00:31:39 Joe Cunningham: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of interesting that you mention that. I was actually at a dinner with friends, and my phone was blowing up on text saying, are you watching this debate? I'm like, no, I'm at dinner with some friends. I forgot what the occasion was, but they were saying, it's bad, it's bad. And I just kinda took it as another day in the park. But later on, going back and watching the clips, what I realized is how bad this was. The even more unfortunate part was that it was so late and could have been prevented by having an honest conversation.

00:32:14 Andrew Keen: In some ways, I think you're on the same page as left-wing reforming Democrats like Mamdani and AOC. Politically, I'm guessing you're not in their camp. But do you admire the fact that at least Mamdani and AOC are taking on the establishment and talking about profound reform, as you are in your new book, Life of the Party?

00:32:37 Joe Cunningham: Yeah, they're both very politically talented individuals. I had the benefit of being sworn in with Alex, and — again, I haven't met Mamdani, but obviously they have their finger on the pulse with the frustrations of Americans, and we gotta work towards the solutions. There's obviously a system that's been developed that is not working, period. And I've got my own ideas. I know they have their own ideas. Let me just say, I think it's easier just to say "raise taxes" or "tax the rich" as a short answer to this problem when I think it runs deeper. And I think it's probably intellectually lazy, because really pinpointing the true solution is very hard. It's a lot of work. But I talk about this in my book about private equity coming into certain sectors and upending them — whether it be the housing situation, where one out of four homes are now owned by private equity. So neighborhoods are being gobbled up and pushing the American dream even further out of reach. You get the same thing with rental units. You have large apartment complexes which had been using private data to artificially jack up the cost of rent. And, you know, I call it the silent squeeze of everyday Americans, these fees and these costs that we constantly incur. Take for instance renters who have to go through a portal to pay the rent, and oftentimes are charged a fee of a few dollars just to pay the rent. They can't just go down and drop off a check like you used to. So it's just one small example of this push by private equity or private businesses to control and manipulate the cost of living, whether it be housing, whether it be health care, or education. They've got their tentacles in it, and we have to figure out a way to untangle that.

00:34:53 Andrew Keen: Yeah, in some ways, you sound like Mamdani or AOC. Mamdani describes himself as a socialist. You're critical of private equity, like billionaires — not most people's friends on left and right. But I assume, Joe, that in contrast with Mamdani or AOC or Bernie Sanders, you're not opposed to capitalism itself. Do you believe that if the Democrats are to regain America's trust, they have to rethink capitalism but not throw it out with the bathwater?

00:35:27 Joe Cunningham: I'm a capitalist, Andrew, point blank. And I think that as I look out on the horizon, in order to preserve and fight for true capitalism, somebody has to stand up and push back against the corporate greed that exists, infiltrating, like I said, housing and health care. So something has to be done. I mean, in economics, basic economics is supply and demand, right? But you have prescription drug companies who are single-handedly controlling the supply of particular drugs that treat certain illnesses. You can't get it any other way because it hasn't been developed, and/or because they are blocking generic drugs from coming onto the market by patent manipulation. These are things that may cause people's eyes to glaze over and they lose interest, but there are a lot of things happening where corporations are controlling the marketplace of survivability. And, again, I see it as — in order to preserve capitalism, it has to be somewhat changed so that you rid it of the corporate greed that's preying on working-day Americans.

00:36:42 Andrew Keen: Where are you on the abundance agenda? Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson came out with a bestselling book last year suggesting that the problem in America is not so much inequality or unfairness — it's the failure to get things done, to get things built. Do you think that their critique is a better one than the AOC, Bernie Sanders socialist critique?

00:37:06 Joe Cunningham: I haven't studied their abundance theory too much, to be honest with you.

00:37:10 Andrew Keen: Have you read the book?

00:37:14 Joe Cunningham: I've read another one of Ezra Klein's books, but I haven't read the one on abundance.

00:37:20 Andrew Keen: So where are you, Joe, on immigration? It seems to be one of the issues that was given almost as a softball to the Democrats, and they whiffed. If there's a single policy that the Biden-Harris axis failed on, was it immigration?

00:37:45 Joe Cunningham: I believe so. And I think it goes much bigger than just the sole issue of immigration — it's how we treated people and spoke down to them. I talk about this in the book, how the Democratic Party refused to believe that the issue of immigration could impact people outside of border states. And, you know, one of the TV hosts mentioned in the book jokes about how this was an issue that was polling in West Virginia, and then joked about how far West Virginia was away from the border, and basically saying, oh, it shouldn't be an issue for them. But telling people what they should be concerned about or not concerned about has not been a winning premise for the Democratic Party. You saw that with the economics, the rollout of what some called Bidenomics, and the Democratic Party in 2024 largely told people that, hey, the economy is fine, you're doing great, don't worry — when people, after their paycheck was spent on housing and food and health care, they didn't have anything. And they're like, well, it's not doing great, because I can't go on vacation, or we can't cover my bills, or I'm going into credit card debt. So telling Americans what they should be focused on or worried about, I think, is the overall issue. But it was very apparent that immigration was a problem and should've been handled a lot differently than it was.

00:39:12 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And unions, of course — left-wing unions have always been ambivalent, to say the best about immigration. I think you can be conservative on immigration without being a racist. You also earlier mentioned the g-word, gerrymandering, which has become a real hot issue these days. How central is this to the problem, and how does Joe Cunningham solve it? Or at least, how should the Democratic Party of Joe Cunningham — this new party — how can it address gerrymandering?

00:39:41 Joe Cunningham: I'm against gerrymandering, no matter who's doing it.

00:39:45 Andrew Keen: Well, that goes without saying, Joe.

00:39:47 Joe Cunningham: Yeah, yeah.

00:39:48 Andrew Keen: You're against apple pie, isn't it?

00:39:50 Joe Cunningham: Alright. I can tell you a story that, you know, when I was in closed-door meetings — the bipartisan group of Democrats and Republicans — a Democrat was looking for a Republican co-sponsor of an anti-gerrymandering bill, and he was unable to find one. And I can tell you, sitting here today, that the Democratic Party has been the only party that's put a bill on the House floor that bans gerrymandering. I think it's a huge issue, especially in the House of Representatives, where most elections run uncompetitive. Or as I sit here in Charleston, the district's been drawn to encompass the City of Columbia. And folks don't even know what district they're in, and they feel like their vote doesn't matter. So it is, I believe, a huge part of the divisiveness. When the primaries are the only competitive elections, those candidates in their respective primaries generally run to the corners, to the far left or far right. And then those are the people who make it up to Washington, DC, and you wonder why we have such a broad divide to bridge — it's because of the way that the districts have been drawn.

00:41:01 Andrew Keen: You talk about Democrats losing America's trust maybe because it's wishy-washy. One of the issues that the party seems particularly divided on, maybe between the Bernie Sanders/AOC wing and the Ezra Klein wing, is technology, AI, data centers. What's your take on this from the vantage point of Charleston, South Carolina? Some people, some progressives even, are very concerned that in turning against technology, Americans are turning against progress. Do you see big tech, Silicon Valley, as the problem or the solution, Joe?

00:41:41 Joe Cunningham: Well, I think we're entering a new frontier, and it ties back to the geriatric oligarchy — or the gerontocracy, as you referred to it. Andrew, we need new leaders who understand these problems. And I can say, as a matter of fact, that the vast majority of members of Congress, they can't grapple with these issues that are emerging. They are fast-moving, and you have to have leaders who can at least understand the impacts these are making. That goes from social media preying on the vulnerabilities of our children, to stealing information, taking identity, manipulating it, to artificially inflating prices, jacking up costs in every single sector across the economy, to the environmental impact of data centers, how to grapple with that. This is the next frontier, and we need to get in front of it.

00:42:40 Andrew Keen: I think the party needs to — well, that goes without saying, but what does Joe Cunningham want? Do you want fewer data centers? Should they be allowed to be opened in the suburbs of Charleston? Is it good or bad for a local community?

00:42:50 Joe Cunningham: I think that's for each respective community. I know in Charleston, we're not big on them, and we've actually pushed some out. You've seen local governments push them out. You even saw a story of a family up in Kentucky on the Ohio River, who got offered millions of dollars to sell off their farmland. Didn't do it. So they're gonna have to learn to adapt. They cannot be given carte blanche — there has to be some type of balance. And also, there has to be some type of regulation as well, because otherwise, you know, liberty to wolves is death to lambs, right? So unless we have — our country is operating under some archaic laws as it relates to the internet and the Privacy Act. And so you see families — and I'm part of this litigation too, representing families who are pushing the edge and holding social media accountable for the impacts they've had on children. And so it's an emerging frontier, and I want the party to get it right, but more importantly, I want the country to get it right too.

00:44:06 Andrew Keen: Finally, Joe, the midterms, of course, are coming up. It's a very bloody situation, it seems, within the Republican Party. Trump seems to be killing — or the MAGA people seem to be killing — the old party. One of the things that concerns me about the Democrats is there's less bloodletting. Newsom appears to be the front-runner for the moment for the 2028 presidential election. He seems to be trying to steer between the left and the right. Do you think for the Democrats to truly reinvent themselves, as you're calling for in this new book of yours, Life of the Party, there needs to be some significant bloodletting in a sense? I don't wanna talk about Trump all the time. But whether one likes him or not, he's doing the right thing by purging the party, by creating this civil war situation where there are either winners or losers. And the problem with the Democrats and guys like Gavin Newsom is they're not quite willing to acknowledge that bloody situation or that bloody scenario.

00:45:15 Joe Cunningham: I think absolutely, Andrew. There's gonna be kind of either a coming to Jesus or a transformation within the Democratic Party where there is some accountability for what led up to 2024. I mean, I was asking somebody the other day, do I remember correctly that you had a bunch of Democratic elected officials standing outside the White House after the debate saying, basically, we checked on Biden and he's doing fine. And his staff and his administration were basically saying that the president is gonna go to bed sooner, wake up later, and shorten his workday — as that would appease the Americans and think that that's okay. And so, look, I don't think people are gonna escape this conversation. I think we're gonna revisit it. You know, lessons will be repeated until they're learned, right? So it is something that the Democratic Party has to grapple with, and that goes for anybody who wants to run for president.

00:46:16 Andrew Keen: So can we expect a Joe Cunningham run in 2028 for president? Are you the next president? Are you the next Jimmy Carter?

00:46:25 Joe Cunningham: No. I just turned 44 a couple of days ago. And look, I like to think that not all my days in public service are behind me, but I've enjoyed Charleston, Andrew. I've enjoyed being a dad and practicing law. And I wrote this book out of love for the party, but also belief of what it could be again. And so I hope it's well received. People can pick it up — lifeofthepartybook.com, or you can find it on Amazon. It's now the number one bestseller in the elections category on Amazon. So we're happy about that.

00:46:59 Andrew Keen: Congratulations. I don't know how much competition you have in elections, but, well, there you have it. Life of the Party: How Democrats Lost America's Trust and How They Can Win It Back, by my guest today, Joe Cunningham — not shy to take strong positions, sometimes perhaps unpopular within his own party. He was the guy who stood up to Nancy Pelosi and lived to tell the story. Joe, congratulations on the book, and best of luck with the addition to the family in July next month. Hopefully, it'll give you time to celebrate the 250th anniversary. Thank you so much.

00:47:37 Joe Cunningham: Thanks for having me, Andrew.