How to Watch the World Cup Like a Genius: Nick Greene on Why the Best Team Doesn’t Always Win

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It's not long until the World Cup begins on June 11, less than a month. And the World Cup, I wouldn't say comes home, but comes to North America, The United States, Canada, and Mexico with the final on July 19. We've done quite a lot of shows on it. We did a show with the English journalist, Amy Lawrence, unfortunately, an Arsenal fan, about who's the greatest player in history, Maradona Pele or Messi. We've all got opinions. We did one more recently with Simon Kuper, the excellent football writer, sports journalist, columnist for the Financial Times, who writes about his life going to nine consecutive World Cups. This will be the tenth that he comes to. And then most recently with Franklin Foer, the American journalist who wrote a book about how soccer explains the world. And today, we're continuing the theme of soccer or, quote, unquote, soccer, which is really football. But we're not talking about the players. We're talking about how to watch soccer like a genius, like a pro with my guest, Nick Greene. The book is out this week. He already wrote a very successful book on basketball called How to Watch Basketball Like a Genius. And Nick is joining us as all geniuses are in Berkeley. Nick, congratulations on on the new book, How to Watch Soccer Like a Genius, what architects, stuntmen, paleoanthropologists, and computer scientists reveal about the world's game. I know you're a a big fan. Your English team is Newcastle United. How'd you get into the game? How did you learn how to watch football?

00:02:26 Nick Greene: I started watching I think it was it's funny. Not even the actual tournament of Euro two thousand, but it was a friend had a VHS copy or maybe it was DVD at the time of the highlights of that tournament. And I remember just watching that over and over and over again and then sort of realizing that this might be the sport for me. And then I started to watch Premier League games and World Cups, and I became obsessed.

00:02:56 Andrew Keen: What are the lessons? I mean, the book is, I think, mostly published in The United States. So it comes with this title soccer, which football is known as in The United States. I don't think it's known anywhere else as soccer. What do you think Americans need to learn about how to watch the game? The the stereotype is Americans are very impatient. They don't understand, for example, the concept of a draw or a nil nil game. What particular challenges are there with football soccer about watching it for American sports fans?

00:03:30 Nick Greene: Yeah. We go over like, you know, I felt like addressing some of these, criticisms head on, and rather than dismiss them, I kind of wanna give them some credence. For example, the scarcity of of scoring, low scoring games, is a complaint you'll hear a lot about. It's kind of a again, I I you know, I just said I I didn't dismiss them. It's a little bit of a silly complaint because football, for example, American football has, score inflation when a touchdown for six points, that kind of thing. But I sort of wanted to dive into what that means. This scarcity of the the few goals. Like, what what kind of there is some truth behind that, compared to other sports. But, also, for example, in following that path, I talked to a astronomer, a NASA scientist who had done a study on the fact that there are so few goals in soccer and what that means. And he determined that, soccer matches are poorly designed experiments in that you don't necessarily find out the the result doesn't accurately reflect always which team was better, which is funny that he went through all this, trouble of of getting a peer reviewed paper in a journal when he could just, you know, watch the games, and any soccer fan will tell you that. Oftentimes, the better team does not win. So that's one example, the broader —

00:04:56 Andrew Keen: Doesn't that mean — I'm not sure.

00:04:57 Nick Greene: Well, not often. Occasionally. Occasionally.

00:05:00 Andrew Keen: Is that not true? Do you think of I mean, as I said, you, your last book was how to watch basketball like a genius. Is that not true of basketball? Do you think that are there sometimes basketball games where the best team loses?

00:05:14 Nick Greene: It's less so. I think more importantly, the, playoffs are designed. You know, these are seven game series. So on average, the best team will, given that many chances, come out on top. And something like the World Cup, which is single elimination, you put that on top of the fact that, you know, these are games where one error can have outsized importance. But, again, I mean, that's that's often not the point of why we we watch. It's a big reason, but it's everything happening in between the goals too.

00:05:49 Andrew Keen: I wonder whether justice has anything to do with it, certainly when it comes to the best team losing. My one of my most painful memories was the nineteen seventy four World Cup when the Dutch, who were everyone's heroes, everyone's darlings, a remarkable team led by, of course, Johan Cruyff, were beaten in the final, by, of all countries, Germany, that's West Germany at the time, who nobody much liked. We liked the Germans, I think, a little bit more these days. And I always, when I was growing up, I read about the nineteen fifty four World Cup, where the Hungarians were beaten in the final by the Germans once again, and the Germans were kind of the equivalent of the Dutch back then. So is there an element of of justice here, especially when it comes to the World Cup? I'm sure you have some examples of teams that should have won that didn't. They often tend to be small teams. When the, World Cup was held in America back in, '94. I remember going to a game at Foxborough Stadium in Boston, seeing I think it was Nigeria against Italy. And the Nigerians were by far the best team, and, again, they lost, which is always very disappointing.

00:07:01 Nick Greene: Well, I think that's such a a fascinating thing about football is that, you know, that Dutch team you mentioned, they didn't win, but they are held aloft as one of the greatest teams ever, one of the most influential teams ever. And then you have a a team like, Greece who, you know, against all odds, won the European championships in 2004. And they did it in a very defensive style sort of getting one nil wins and Yeah. I mean parking the bus that and but and they're they're they're more remembered as a a fluke. They're not held aloft like, you know, one of the great teams of all time. I think there's all this sort of built in context that people who watch soccer, I think, have and and and the shared understanding about that kind of thing. And, yeah, the sense of justice, I mean, that's it's it makes it a very, imperfect and human enterprise, the game.

00:07:55 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And, of course, some of us fantasize about an Iran America final. It would bring out all our senses of justice and injustice.

00:08:04 Nick Greene: Yeah. Yeah. It'd be, I don't know. Maybe I'd get one of those half and half scarves.

00:08:09 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I think I think we would all have to be a little careful about who we we root for in that game. Yeah. I I think your point's a good one actually about Greece. Because when they won the European championship, it's a series it's a it's a remarkable story because they weren't even, I don't think, in the original tournament. And then the Serbs were thrown out because of the the war in Yugoslavia. So the Greeks — oh, no. Was that —

00:08:35 Nick Greene: That was Denmark.

00:08:37 Andrew Keen: That's the Danish story.

00:08:38 Nick Greene: So Who also won in, you know, playing I mean, who can blame? Playing defensively. And

00:08:43 Andrew Keen: Yeah.

00:08:44 Nick Greene: And that was the last, tournament before, the back pass rule was put into place. So that's the one where you had them passing back to Peter Schmeichel at goal, and he'd pick it up and waste time. And he even admitted, you know, that's what the game plan was.

00:08:58 Andrew Keen: It's it's funny, Nick. I'm not a big fan of American football, but my wife is, so we we watch it a lot, or she watches it, and I sometimes do. And she has educated me in the game, and it's a much more sophisticated game, I think, than it appears. And she certainly educated me about the value of defense. And when it comes to low scoring games, of course, the genius in football soccer are defenders. The the the defender who most comes to mind in terms of being remarkable, who I watched a lot growing up in World Cups was Paolo Maldini. Beckenbauer, the great German defender, of course, comes to mind. Is one of the things that you talk about in the book about how to watch soccer like a genius is to appreciate defense?

00:09:47 Nick Greene: Yes. You know, I defense is so often, it's it can look like the absence of good offense, but there's obviously a lot of thinking, a lot of strategy, a lot of athletic progress involved in that. Talk about the Italian's history of outstanding defense, which Maldini is a part of. And what's their

00:10:14 Andrew Keen: Nick, that they used to use in the sixties? You probably pronounce it.

00:10:17 Nick Greene: It it it means it means door latch. Is

00:10:20 Andrew Keen: it, like, kind of What? Catenaccio? Or

00:10:22 Nick Greene: Yeah. Catenaccio. Yeah. I don't wanna butcher it. It's Yeah.

00:10:25 Andrew Keen: Well, you wanna butcher it any more than I do. But whatever it was, it was, they they butchered the attackers.

00:10:32 Nick Greene: Yeah. And, you know, and that's and now that that's the the their history with it is directly related to how seriously they take, strategy and management. They had a a a school for managers that, is still in operation where anyone who wants to be a manager in Italy has to write a thesis, and you can find these online. Andrea Pirlo, his thesis, I was reading the other day. It's it's it's up there with sourcing and everything. He's a Times New Roman guy, I think. But they, you know, take it seriously, and and defending is directly sort of an outcrop from things like the offside trap, the first offside trap, which, you know, was used to such great effect by players on teams like Newcastle United in the thirties that had to change the offside rules. So, a difference between American football and and football is, you know, American football will change the rules drastically every season, to, I don't know, to address certain points of interest. Whereas in football, it takes forever if any changes are made. And

00:11:44 Andrew Keen: Yeah. In my lifetime, the only changes I can think of are are the passback rule to the goalkeeper, I think, and that's pretty much it. Yeah. It's funny. When it comes to watching soccer, you would assume that the Italians would be very flamboyant because Italy, of course, is full of flamboyant and beauty and genius and all the rest of it. You expect the Italians to play like, I don't know, like like they're they're great artists or musicians. But, actually, the Italians play like the Germans in the sense that they've mastered the art of defense. I mean, sometimes, I guess, they've also have a reputation for the cynicism. But when it comes to watching soccer like a genius, would you advise people who are watching the game this summer who perhaps aren't too familiar with it, should they appreciate a degree of cynicism? Unfortunately, the Italians aren't even in this tournament, but there will be cynical defenders, people who

00:12:44 Nick Greene: Always. Mind and cheat.

00:12:45 Andrew Keen: But should we appreciate that?

00:12:48 Nick Greene: Of course. I mean, it's part of the game, and it always will be. And especially in big international tournaments where the stakes are so high and, you know, you don't wanna make mistakes. And what's that what Jose Mourinho said is he who has the ball has fear. I think that's magnified in, international tournaments. So, yeah, it it that I think that's why, in my opinion, especially the it feels like the last the past few tournaments, it's the product, like, to use, I guess, that's an American term to describe, how a game is played. The product is less wouldn't say entertaining, but less fluid, less refined as, you know, something like a Premier League game with these teams that are sort of together for long periods of time and know each other and and practice more.

00:13:42 Andrew Keen: Although that's not necessarily true at the international level, it's certainly true at the the club level. You you mentioned Jose Mourinho, still probably the best known manager. What advice would you give people about watching soccer this summer in terms of the manager? Because I don't know how people describe the manager, the twelfth man. Sometimes the most important man one one thinks of the great managers, somebody like sir Alex Ferguson or Mourinho or some of the international managers, they make the team. So when it comes to watching, should you watch the manager? I mean, the camera will sometimes, go to the manager. But what advice would you give when it comes to watching soccer like a genius about watching or not watching or or alerting yourself to the manager?

00:14:32 Nick Greene: You know, I love watching the managers. I think a lot of them love being watched. You'll be able to tell, I think, who's performative and who's genuine. Even if you know little about the game, I think that does come through. And the funny thing is during the act during the matches, the managers can't do too much. Substitutions are limited. I mean, there's more allowed now than there used to be. You know, you can't it's not basketball. It's not it's not American football. You can't call a time out and drop a play. So they are these sort of, quite impotent figureheads on the sideline sidelines, and they make for for, I think, entertaining viewing at the very least. What what you can learn about the game from them, not much. The ones who use their hands more in in and are doing this and this, those are the ones I think who know that they're on camera.

00:15:35 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And I think you should my view is you should pay attention to what they wear. My team, Tottenham, had a manager last year. We won a tournament for the first time for many years, but we had this Greek manager or this Australian Greek manager who was rather overweight and always very poorly dressed. He looked like the owner of a kebab store. So, I was always rather unimpressed with him. I'm sure he wasn't a bad manager, but the dress is important. Now we have an Italian manager who wears very flashy shoes, so I'm impressed with that. Mourinho is always very well dressed. Do you think the dress matters of the manager?

00:16:09 Nick Greene: Of course. I mean, Pep Guardiola, he's Yeah. You know, I think you always it's a good

00:16:19 Andrew Keen: The management the team manager.

00:16:21 Nick Greene: Uh-huh. Yeah. Especially it's it's especially if they're the ones who sort of have a style either extremely simple or flamboyant, you can tell if it's earned. It's more I think it's more interesting when you see a new manager step onto the pitch for the first couple of of matches and see what they're they're wearing. That tells you a lot about how they wanna be perceived, I I would imagine. You know, does the manager of my team, my favorite team, he always just wears sweatsuits. So, he's not someone who

00:16:56 Andrew Keen: him, actually. I I I went to a West Ham Newcastle game earlier this year or late last year, which Newcastle lost. And he he did look a bit of a schlock, but and Newcastle played like a schlock as well.

00:17:10 Nick Greene: And, you know, these it seems like a truly miserable job. You think? Yeah. I mean, obviously, it gets pay you get paid well. But I would imagine the hours are long. You get all the blame.

00:17:26 Andrew Keen: You You get the adulation too. Do I mean, for people who just come into the game, you just watch this summer and don't follow English teams or any club teams. International management is a bit different from club management, isn't it?

00:17:42 Nick Greene: Yes. Very different. It's both in terms of things like strategy and simple things like contracts. I mean, look at England's manager, Thomas Tuchel. He's only through contract through the end of

00:17:56 Andrew Keen: And he's German as as as every English tabloid will remind you constantly.

00:18:02 Nick Greene: Yes. So that, you know, the, brevity of his contract allows him, I think, to be more ruthless. He's not trying to make friends and stick around in this job forever. He's has one goal, one job, which is what I guess they all have, but his is to win. And he can drop players and don't have to worry about, basically getting piled on because of it, and, he can sort of stick to his the the task at hand. Whereas if you're managing a big club team, there's so much more on your plate of of how the club operates. I mean, a lot of this is done with executives and other roles, but, it's a lot more, I'd imagine, involved. And you play every week versus every couple of years, I guess, you know, not including qualifiers and friendlies. But

00:18:51 Andrew Keen: Nick, what advice would you give Americans when it comes to supporting the US Team? We did a show earlier this year with a Haitian novelist who wrote a semi fictional book about, a novel, he called it, but it was based on fact about how America defeated England in 1950 in, in in the Brazil tournament's in Belo Horizonte, which is still the biggest upset perhaps in the whole competition's history. And oddly enough, the American goal was scored by a Haitian, which is true, and he wasn't even a US passport holder, which reflects, I think, US's lack of history. Should Americans support their national team? I mean, there'll be many, Americans of Latin American, Central American, European descent who will just dismiss America Mhmm. Being a joke. Their manager isn't a joke. It's Mauricio Pochettino who used to manage Spurs. But, should Americans support America, or is that a bit of a joke?

00:19:58 Nick Greene: I mean, I I think it's it's up to the team to play in a way that's worth supporting. I think that's a big part of it.

00:20:09 Andrew Keen: Well, you're not answering my question. I mean, you'll know how they'll play. They'll play in a boring way. Like, I mean, how does play?

00:20:16 Nick Greene: Weird things happen in tournaments. Weird things, happen. I mean, I think it'll be evident in that first first match, what they're bringing to the table.

00:20:28 Andrew Keen: People in I mean, you could if if you know one of your fellow Newcastle United fans, well, I might support them. It depends how they'll play. They would throw you out of their pub. I mean, should Americans take their own team seriously?

00:20:47 Nick Greene: I mean, yeah, I it's I think it's easy to before the tournament sit and I won't say intellectualize, but sort of think about the big picture stuff about America as a ongoing project that we're sort of stumbling through right now. I think that's will it'll be again, if they're playing well and winning, which are huge ifs and I think maybe a little unlikely at this point, all the sort of trepidation will, I think, fade away a little bit, and it'll be easier to root for them. I mean, you mentioned there there's lots of players on the team who are who have backgrounds of you know, international backgrounds and come from, you know, all different walks of life and everything. But, again, right now, I think that the every time I've watched them in the lead up to the World Cup, they've been thoroughly uninspiring.

00:21:44 Andrew Keen: Okay. Well, let me revise the question. You're an American. You've written this book. You're a big football soccer fan. You follow Newcastle United. Will you be rooting for America?

00:21:58 Nick Greene: Yeah. I mean, I in I guess so. Yeah. I guess so.

00:22:04 Andrew Keen: Tepid, Nick.

00:22:05 Nick Greene: Yeah. You know, I'm I will be. It's but I it's it's am I gonna be rah rah? I honestly think that if if they go and they win the goddamn World Cup, my first reaction will probably be to think that this is the funniest thing that's ever happened. And I think I'll be happy. There'll be some happiness on there. This is not a time, you know, we're talking about, I guess, is is this a time to be proud to be an American? And I would say not necessarily. Sure.

00:22:42 Andrew Keen: Okay. So you're tepid and ambivalent. You said if America wants to be the wins, it'd be the funniest thing, be a comedy. Should people who are new to the game, who are gonna watch the tournament on the television for a month this summer, and everyone's gonna be watching, should they pick a team, an African team, for example, or a hate Haiti, for example, or a small team? I mean, do do people have the right to choose to follow Americans? Do they have the right morally to follow Brazil or France?

00:23:13 Nick Greene: Yeah. I think that's a pretty natural thing, especially if you know, Americans, we are somewhat unique in the in this regard is is that, you know, when it comes to football, to soccer, we are, you know, we're kind of barnacles attaching ourselves to the whole, and and and we pick teams from other countries to follow. We you know, it's that's sort of the the name of the game with with us, so I wouldn't think that's out of bounds. I that's, like, the the the that's what the first, I think, the wonderful first week of of group play is all about is you watch and you find out, you know, who you're gonna like. I mean, I remember was it first of the most recent European championships I've I was rooting for Austria just because I liked how they played. I think there will be players that you become attached to and playing styles that that are inherently fun to to watch and root for. And, again, I mean, I'll I'll I'll I will be have a vested interest in America doing well. But

00:24:23 Andrew Keen: And do we all should we all have a team? I mean, growing up, of course, especially in England, we all hated the Germans. Mhmm. There's even a a famous, comment by Gary Lineker, former England player, said football is a very simple game. It's 11 and against an 11, and in the end, the Germans win. It's things have changed a little bit now. But should we also have a team that we hate? Because football is as much about haters love.

00:24:51 Nick Greene: Yeah. Should we have a team that we hate? It helps.

00:24:56 Andrew Keen: Do you have a team you hate?

00:24:58 Nick Greene: Probably Netherlands. Right? Well, no. That's that's that's the thing is being a a a American Newcastle United. I always found this sort of I was not allowed to hate Sunderland. I don't get the regional nuance. I don't get that. I mean, I, absorb it from reading about, you know, reading things from fans and and and whatnot, but it's not something I actually feel. You know, I think there's it's easier to maybe hate individual players, but it's also in terms of context. It's it's if I'm watching a game and I don't know who I want to win, my next sort of, response is to pick a team I want. They'll be one I wanna lose.

00:25:46 Andrew Keen: And they'll be they'll be great villains. I mean, I know you write in the book about Luis Suarez, the Uruguayan player who famously, who did he cheat? The the Ghanaians.

00:25:58 Nick Greene: Yeah. And then he and he

00:25:59 Andrew Keen: very famous since then. Maybe you can tell us about it and what what we should learn from Suarez about watching or not watching the game.

00:26:07 Nick Greene: Yeah. That was, what, 2010, the South Africa World Cup. He, you know, stopped a goal bound Ghanaian effort and extra time No problem. His hand. I was

00:26:17 Andrew Keen: and I don't think an African team had ever been in the semifinals at that.

00:26:20 Nick Greene: No. And this was, you know, in Africa, and he, they missed the subsequent penalty, and he has never, you know I think he was why why should I apologize? You know, the other team missed the penalty. I didn't. But and he's someone again, what what helps with him and what why he's such a fascinating player is because I do think he's one of the best players I've ever seen in my entire life. I he's completely breathtaking. He also happens to be just a complete piece of crap. But again

00:26:51 Andrew Keen: And those sort of might actually go together.

00:26:54 Nick Greene: Yeah. Yeah. And and and it's enjoyable to watch someone who you you know, it's we don't you don't have to separate the art from the artist. You can enjoy their have

00:27:07 Andrew Keen: risen in the league table of football villainy. When I was growing up, it was Argentina because the nineteen sixty six World Cup, our manager at the time, we, the English beat the Argentines, won there on the quarter final. Their, their fire their captain, Rattín, was sent off, and the manager the English manager, Sir Alf Ramsey, famously called the Argentines animals. This was pre Messi, pre Maradona. But the the Uruguayans have taken over the mantle of villainy, I think, with Suarez and some of their other player.

00:27:41 Nick Greene: Yeah. It helped me. They started winning again. You know, it's hard to be a villain when you suck. Yeah. I've tried.

00:27:49 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Messi is too cute to be a villain, and Maradona, of course, is unusual in that he's simultaneously a villain and a genius.

00:27:57 Nick Greene: Uh-huh. Yeah. He he floats above everything. Maradona does, really. I mean, he all any sense of ethics, morality. I mean, he's he scored the best goal and the worst goal in the history of the World Cup in the same match. Yeah. Again, both against England as I'm sure.

00:28:13 Andrew Keen: In '86. I watched it in Berkeley up the road from you. I still remember that game. Are you I mean, when when I talk to Amy Lawrence and some other English, journalists, We asked the Maradona Pele or Messi question. Do you do you have a a dog in that fight?

00:28:34 Nick Greene: I don't. You know, the only one I've I've I've watched, you know, live at their primary, you know, Messi. I watched I barely remember watching Maradona, the few games he played in '94, the USA World Cup. So, I mean, I've I've watched his highlights. I've watched full games with him. I've watched that wonderful documentary that came out a few years ago. Yeah.

00:28:57 Andrew Keen: It was an excellent but made by a Liverpool fan.

00:29:00 Nick Greene: Yeah. It was fantastic. And that I think that's anyone. That I would recommend that to anyone fan, not fan, soccer curious. It's great. You know, in Pele, you hear all the stories, but then you also hear people saying, well, he scored a lot of those goals in the army and that kind of thing. So it's I have I have no actual objective way to compare them. And it's it's I think it's a testament to Messi, though, that he's even in the conversation because for a while, it felt like no matter who comes up there, it's gonna be Maradona and Pele, and no one else is gonna be welcomed into that elite. Yeah.

00:29:37 Andrew Keen: I think it's it's a bit of an American narrative, this goat idea of the greatest of all time. I'm not sure that if you really wanna appear like a genius, watching football, you probably don't wanna be endlessly talking about the greatest of all time. Yeah. Basketball, of course, lends itself to that maybe because there are fewer players. There's Michael Jordan, of course, Steph Curry these days.

00:30:03 Nick Greene: It's it's I think it's

00:30:04 Andrew Keen: kind of a warning in a way, Nick, that you shouldn't approach or you shouldn't watch football like basketball and assume that there is a Michael Jordan or a Steph Curry.

00:30:15 Nick Greene: Yeah. That's I think that's good advice. And, you know, with basketball and and other sport, those are sports that are more, I think, statistics, not driven, but they're more you know, people will be throwing around. Okay. Michael Jordan had x amount of points. Well, LeBron's gone to x amount of finals, and, soccer is is a little resistant and allergic to, that kind of talk.

00:30:47 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Although, I have to admit, I'm not a big basketball fan, but as my wife watches it all the time, so I have to watch it. I rather like Draymond Green. He is the Luis Suarez, I guess, of, not the the the the Jose Mourinho. The Luis Suarez of, American basketball. So there is villainy. I mean, American fans will learn that there are lots of Draymond Greens in in in in football as well.

00:31:15 Nick Greene: And you we want, you know, you want people with personality. You know? It's it's I always feel so funny with someone like Draymond Green. It's we always complain when athletes use cliches or, kind of say little or or don't give us much, especially, you know, on the quarter off of it. And then here's someone who's being honest or, you know, might say things that that are offensive or determined to make people mad. And, hey. It's they're doing something interesting. Let them let them be interesting.

00:31:49 Andrew Keen: Right. And, also, I think I mean, it's your book, but one of the pieces of advice I would make is if you wanna watch and talk about soccer like a genius, you have to talk in cliches. So terms like it's a game of two halves, which sounds a bit dumb, is actually true. So the more you talk in cliches, the smarter you are. Is that fair?

00:32:14 Nick Greene: Yeah. Why not? I mean, the cliches are there's there's there's reason they're cliches. You know, I You can

00:32:23 Andrew Keen: aim of two halves is is is the classic Uh-huh. Even about a game. And, of course, football is two halves. You have half time, which often changes the nature of the flow, everything about the game. I don't quite know why, but, clearly, that's another role where the manager is enormously influential because they go in for fifteen minutes, and then they get screamed at by the manager, and they come out and change everything.

00:32:44 Nick Greene: And it's the only real stoppage you have during a match is that one fifteen minute slice right in the middle. So if something is gonna change, it's, you know, most likely gonna happen there.

00:32:57 Andrew Keen: What about for those very rich people who not only can afford tickets, but can afford to go to the the stadium. I know that a lot of the local transportation, organizations have I mean, what is it? About a $100 to get ten minutes on New York, on New Jersey transit. But for people who get to go to the game, there was a New York Times piece recently, World Cup or bus going into debt, sleeping 10 to a room, and layovers for days. The the stadiums are gonna be full, not only, hopefully, of rich people, rich corporate types. How should you watch soccer like a genius in the stadium? Do you need should you dress up? Should you take a flag? Should you scream? Should you eat p I I like going to basketball baseball games in America because I just eat peanuts, and I can drop shells everywhere. What advice would you give about people who have the good fortune to go to a game?

00:33:51 Nick Greene: Well, my my advice, would be to wait to get tickets because I think there will be

00:33:56 Andrew Keen: Yeah.

00:33:56 Nick Greene: I think deals the the longer you wait with this World Cup. You know, it's you don't necessarily have to watch what's who's on the ball. Watch people making runs off the ball. I go I have an entire chapter

00:34:11 Andrew Keen: scream a lot? Should you should you sing? Should you applaud the other team if they do something good, or should you just make vulgar gestures at the other team and their supporters?

00:34:22 Nick Greene: Follow your heart. I mean, one of my favorite things is is when an an opposing team has a wonderful passage of play and you'll hear a murmur of, oh, that's pretty good from the stands. That's a that's a nice moment.

00:34:32 Andrew Keen: That's right when Barcelona come to your team.

00:34:35 Nick Greene: Yeah. Oh. Oh. Yeah. I, just you can even just sit and enjoy the grass. I have an entire chapter just on grass. It's I promise you, it's entertaining.

00:34:47 Andrew Keen: It is, when you see the grass. And what about fighting, Nick? In my, show with Simon Kuper, he took the first World Cup he went to was in Italy, and he got stopped by Italian police on the border because he was with some other English young men, and they all thought they were football hooligans. There used to be a history of football hooliganism in the World Cup, especially that Italian tournament. It's less so now. But can one fight? Is that

00:35:12 Nick Greene: is that

00:35:12 Andrew Keen: a soccer genius? Is do you have a fight afterwards to go after the other fans?

00:35:16 Nick Greene: No. I don't think so. And at the World Cup, it's gonna be what? There'd be fights over people who are working at bank consulting and and people who work at BCG. Those are gonna be the big sort of, partisan groups. Well yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:30 Andrew Keen: Well, hopefully, yeah, go you can go after the corporates. Right? You can try and beat them up. Although, they're probably all in their boxes. They'll be hard to access. What about, because it's a game of two halves, one piece of advice I would give to people who haven't been to many games is don't drink too much because you're gonna need to pee, and you only wanna pee at halftime. But the problem with peeing at halftime

00:35:54 Nick Greene: Everyone's peeing at halftime.

00:35:55 Andrew Keen: Right. So what should you do into should you just not drink?

00:35:59 Nick Greene: That's a really good question because, it's very fun to drink at a football match. And and something about ballpark beers, I feel like they make they make you go more. They make you make you have to pee more. Gosh. That's a really good question. I feel like now if I had the answer to that, I think this this book would guarantee to sell a million copies. But here I am admitting, I don't know I don't know the answer. If I do it is bad when you go in halftime. The the crush at the lavatories is is is not a good idea.

00:36:34 Andrew Keen: Be a woman. There'll be fewer women, although women's toilets tend to have longer lines. And one piece of advice I would give at least for those people going in American stadiums is the concessions are outrageously expensive.

00:36:47 Nick Greene: Yes. I just saw that Atlanta, which is famous for keeping their concession prices down during NFL games, are doing the same for the World Cup. So if you can go to a match in Atlanta, I guess you'll be able to afford a hot dog. Elsewhere, you should probably just try to tape snacks on the inside of your jacket like, your Midnight Express

00:37:09 Andrew Keen: And I know you're you're right. In the book, you're right. You have a little section on my club's stadium, the only worth valuable worthwhile bit less of a jug than, the Spurs Stadium. And there is a brewery on-site, and the beers are only about six pounds. So if you really wanna sound like a genius at the game, you might say, well, this isn't anything like Spurs where you get beers made of the ground for six pounds.

00:37:33 Nick Greene: I actually didn't know that. What brewery is it?

00:37:37 Andrew Keen: I don't know, but it's a it's a nice one. And and the food and the drink is, is is very pleasant. So what else should we what about the the other thing that's actually changed since I grew up, Nick, I forgot about the there's the pass back, but also penalties. Penalty shootouts divide people. I I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of penalties. But on the other hand, I'm not sure what the alternative is. How would you explain penalties to someone who doesn't know about the game, and how would you talk about penalties like a genius? Because there will be games that will end in penalties.

00:38:14 Nick Greene: Well, what's that that is it the Winston Churchill quote about democracy being

00:38:19 Andrew Keen: Yeah.

00:38:20 Nick Greene: The best of bad? I mean, penalties are the best of bad ideas to end games. It's they're unfair, but they're extremely dramatic. They make for fantastic television. Actually, there there's I I talk a lot about penalties, and there's a whole bunch of studies, both done with actual games and just mathematically of instead of going a b a b a b, which favors the team going second because the team going second will either you know, there's, sorry, favors the well, here I am, not even real put my own plug. It it there's it's it's it's skewed. It favors the team going first because there's less pressure on that taker. If you do a b b a a b b a a, sort of that back and forth, it's it's more fair. They tried it for, it's you know, it it it it evens out the odds of of of of who who goes and who makes their the penalties. But they tried it on a, under 19 tournament, and it just was not compelling television. It wasn't as, it wouldn't have this sort of, jab and riposte of of of a normal penalty shootout. It was odd to see the same team shooting twice in a row. So penalties really are a spectacle for the viewer. Yeah.

00:39:50 Andrew Keen: I mean, they are, again, without wishing to sound anti American, they are a bit American in the sense that Yeah.

00:39:55 Nick Greene: I mean, it it's

00:39:56 Andrew Keen: condensed into a few few minutes at the end.

00:40:00 Nick Greene: Forever it was they decided by flipping a coin or drawing lots. And it's just

00:40:06 Andrew Keen: a hockey alternative of just allowing I I always thought that might be a little bit more interesting of allowing a player with the ball and giving them thirty seconds to score a goal.

00:40:15 Nick Greene: Well, that's what the MLS used to do. What the first couple years is they had, the MLS penalty shootouts at the end of every tied game, which was the attacker would start at the halfway line, and the keeper could come off his line. And, I mean, it was cool. It was different, but it was much much lower scoring. It was more difficult, so it it took longer. And teams, because they were so important, wound up having to practice these very complex sort of, penalty systems. So that was a a a nice little curiosity. I mean, again, penalties are imperfect and often unfair, but so is soccer.

00:41:01 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I don't I don't think Winston Churchill was much of a football fan. He was too busy making up quotes. We've talked about defenders and Maradona, Messi, Pele. We've talked about, goalkeepers. The goal is really matter in terms of watching soccer like a genius, say, for a a penalty shootout. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you should blame a goalkeeper

00:41:24 Nick Greene: Well, that's saving

00:41:26 Andrew Keen: penalties, and and all the pressure is on the taker. But As a goal. Have a responsibility too.

00:41:33 Nick Greene: Yeah. But it's it's it's it's the one time where they have less pressure is the penalty shootout. It's because this it's incumbent on the attacker to to to score, the shooter to score. So, if for once in their lives, if they don't make a save, it's not you know, it's it's it doesn't it's it's it's comparatively less of a big deal. But keepers are more important now because of the way the game is played than ever before because they're like a extra defender, and they're expected to, play the ball with their feet and be part of, build up.

00:42:08 Andrew Keen: Unless they're the English goalie, of course.

00:42:10 Nick Greene: Yeah. And yeah. Well, Pickford's pretty good at that.

00:42:15 Andrew Keen: Yeah. He's good at shouting. I don't know. That good at playing.

00:42:17 Nick Greene: It's but it's but I by the team, I support, our current keeper is a great shot stopper, but he's terrible with his feet. And you think, well, his job is to prevent goals. But then anytime there's a back pass to him, the entire stadium's, anus is pucker because everyone's so scared that he's gonna huff it into his own goal.

00:42:40 Andrew Keen: That gives that's a that's an edifying idea of 50,000 people in Newcastle anus is puckering. Mhmm.

00:42:48 Nick Greene: Sure. Lot of Geordie puckering.

00:42:52 Andrew Keen: So should should you leave before the penalties? Just if you really wanna be a genius, just say, well, I'm not gonna watch this. It's boring. I I watched the game. It was an interesting game, but I don't care who wins because it's basically like tossing a coin.

00:43:08 Nick Greene: Well, I mean, penalties I mean, that's the thing is it's it's not. It's it's so exciting. It's so you know? Yeah.

00:43:14 Andrew Keen: It's yeah. And there's the human I mean, the one thing about penalties is there's the human tragedy, because the guy who misses the penalties so often, especially in England, where they always lose on penalties and, of course, usually to the Germans, The the player who misses the penalty at the end has his life is ruined. There's all these hate online, especially if they're of a different race, and their their career is ruined. Their lives are ruined. So penalties bring out, I guess, the human drama. It's not really a sporting drama.

00:43:47 Nick Greene: I mean, that's how the, Roberto Baggio got the most tragically beautiful nickname ever, the man who died standing. Because after he missed the penalty, that lost the World Cup for Italy in '94, he stood in the same spot, I think, for eight minutes. It was later.

00:44:04 Andrew Keen: Was in at Stanford. Right?

00:44:06 Nick Greene: That was row at the Rose Bowl.

00:44:07 Andrew Keen: Oh, the Rose Bowl.

00:44:08 Nick Greene: Pasadena. Yeah. And, yeah, he missed it and, apparently, for eight minutes, just did not move as all the Brazilians were celebrating around him and everything was you know, confetti was falling, and he was just

00:44:21 Andrew Keen: Or Adra, but I bet he's even his ponytail grew a little bit in that.

00:44:25 Nick Greene: Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:27 Andrew Keen: So what else, what what haven't we covered? We talked about goalkeepers. We've talked about how fans should behave, whether they should pee or not, whether you should obsess over goal scoring. I mean, do you

00:44:40 Nick Greene: I have a question for you. Do you let a poor result ruin your day? Like, when Spurs lose, does it ruin your day?

00:44:48 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Definitely.

00:44:50 Nick Greene: Isn't that the worst?

00:44:51 Andrew Keen: Ruin my life, ruin my year given the the results they've had.

00:44:56 Nick Greene: Yeah. And it's funny. It it's that we let that happen to us, and it's something that you can your brain can

00:45:05 Andrew Keen: really prove happens with I don't know if that's just a soccer thing. I mean, I know my wife's a big Giants fan, 40 niners, Warriors. I mean, when they lose, it ruins her day. So it that's I think with usual to soccer, is it?

00:45:18 Nick Greene: Well, I think when it comes to league play, it is because you have there's you know, it's it's once a week, so you have to wait an entire week. Whereas basketball, if you lose a game, baseball, well, there's gonna be one tomorrow or the next day. And in football, I mean, yes, in the playoffs, it's it's heartbreaking. But during the season, there's that sort of built in hope of of the playoff, you know, coming up. And, you know, the way that it's made now, you can teams that are terrible are still technically in the hunt until the last few weeks,

00:45:51 Andrew Keen: Right.

00:45:51 Nick Greene: Often. But with league play and the accumulation of points, it just feels like, oh, that was it. That was my chance to to watch and enjoy soccer this weekend.

00:46:04 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And as I'm saying, I don't remember which I think it was the nineteen seventy World Cup when Germany lost the semifinal to Italy, a very famous semifinal. One famous, German fan booted his TV in. So what about, how you watch? I watch I have to admit, I can't stand the commentary, so I watch with music. Should you watch with if you're watching the world cup on television, should you listen to the commentary? Often, it's incredibly inane.

00:46:38 Nick Greene: Yeah. You know, I think I'm speaking for myself, but I I do think a lot of Americans do enjoy British commentators. It's just it's it's adds a a a flavor, a tenor to the proceedings. And I guess we are, we give we we obviously lend more, I don't know, grace to to that whereas just something being said in English accent to our stupid ears always sounds elevated and and profound, and that I think is is is true also with with soccer. But it's I think, yeah, keep it on and then I love listening. It's important to have the sound on because I love listening to the crowd. The crowd tells you everything you want to to know about a game. I I actually talked to a, person who's who has a pretty well known analytics firm that does a lot of soccer analytics, and he was telling me how he devised a way to quickly make highlights of matches, that both, you know usually, you'd have to have someone watch the entire game and say, okay. At minute fourteen, there was a good shot. Remember that. Go back. What he would do is he just had the audio of the games and listened to the crowd noise. And when the crowd noise would peak, he knew that those moments in the match were worth watching.

00:48:10 Andrew Keen: And there's

00:48:10 Nick Greene: some that wouldn't come up in the stat sheet, you know, a a pass that was a brilliant pass that didn't quite hit its mark that's worth seeing that would never come up in, you know, the the timeline of a statistics. That'll the audience will the crowd will tell you that.

00:48:25 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I mean, this is your book, so I'm not telling you what it should have been called. But if I'd have been writing it, I would have entitled it How to Listen to Soccer Like a Genius. I grew up with BBC commentators. The two greatest in my lifetime, at least, were Peter Peter Jones and Bryon Butler. And we used to just listen. Didn't even matter whether we cared about the game. So

00:48:48 Nick Greene: I there's a whole thing. I do a whole thing. I, when the BBC was first started to broadcast matches, they had sort of not open tryouts, but they tested out a bunch of different commenters. And I went to Reading outside of London where they have this big archives, and I found their sort of dossier of that of of all those sort of test readings. And it's funny to hear them talk about, this one sounds like a pseudo middle tower. This one is doesn't shed a

00:49:21 Andrew Keen: But if you wanna, if you for people who really wanna appreciate commentary, I would tell them you talked about that famous Maradona game, the Argentina, England game in '86 when Maradona scored the hand of God goal, the worst goal ever scored, and then the greatest goal when he ran through the entire English team. I would encourage people on the one hand to watch it on TV and listen to the commentary. And then and you can get it on u not on YouTube, but you can find it on the Internet. Listen to Bryon Butler's commentary of the Maradona, the Maradona goal. My kids all know the commentary of by heart. At one point, he says he's like a little eel. It's absolutely brilliant. So we haven't talked I mean, we've talked a lot about football. We haven't really talked about the book, Nick. Let me give you an opportunity. I mean, it's not just Nick Greene's view on how to watch soccer like a genius, and it's certainly not you didn't interview me. You probably don't really care what I think. But what do architects, stunt women, paleoanthropologists, and computer scientists tell us about the game? You talk to a lot of people. Do you have to be a paleoanthropologist to sound like a genius? I mean, most people who know about football are certainly not paleoanthropologists. When you go to Newcastle on a Saturday afternoon, they probably They they were coal miners. I'm not sure what they do now, but they can speak very intelligently about the game.

00:50:50 Nick Greene: No. You know, it's it's this really is an outcropping of just the way I think. And I I'm someone who, for example, will just, my brain doesn't stay still, not in a good way. And for example, the paleoanthropologist, I've that's just about feet because he's also a podiatrist, and I want to learn more about feet because, gosh, it's weird that you have a game that you can't use your hands and that plays legislative towards the feet. What what's what does that mean? How does that, you know, what is someone who's knows the, you know, a paleoanthropologist or a podiatrist who has a full fossil record of the human foot in its evolution? What does he see when Messi pulls down a 60 yard pass with his in a step? Architects, you know, I'm looking at the field and design as a piece of architecture, because that's what it is. I mean, it's a a a space that a place that is engineered to move people around in in different space. So that's their sort of, look at it. I basically it's find something interesting about the game and then find the most relevant slash irrelevant person to bug and annoy and call them on the phone and ask them a bunch of questions about soccer that they're not necessarily prepared to answer, but I think give a very fulfilling, well rounded view of the game.

00:52:22 Andrew Keen: Yeah. There's only a religious quality when you see the the turf, coming into the stadium. What about stunt women? What do they know about watching soccer?

00:52:34 Nick Greene: Stunt women. I wanted to talk to her about diving, and I I I

00:52:38 Andrew Keen: Oh, okay. So the Louise Suarez,

00:52:40 Nick Greene: I watched the whole collection of of of Suarez dives with her, and and she sort of gave her opinion and rating. And and, and and she was she was impressed. A woman who, you know, gets hit by cars for a living was very Who's

00:52:54 Andrew Keen: the greatest diver? I mean, Maradona was pretty good. They were I mean, usually the best dive is the people who get fouled all the time. So they Yeah.

00:53:01 Nick Greene: The ones who actually get who actually get fouled. I mean, and now I've I've diving is changing. I mean, the art of diving is very different now that you have VAR. I mean, it's you used to be able now the contact is all that matters. And so, yeah, these players who sort of leaving their legs behind with, like, a phantom limb and trying desperately to get trip get tripped up. There's less, I mean, I've noticed there's less grimacing and and sort of crying and and demonstration, because they know, okay. If if I got the contact, that's enough for for VAR to to to give me Yeah.

00:53:40 Andrew Keen: There's a I mean, it moves so fast now. Sometimes it's even hard to tell. And the other thing we forgot to talk about is VAR. What what what if you wanna be a genius to watch soccer, what should you say about VAR? It's not the most popular of things. But on the other hand, sometimes it does, determine whether or not it's very hard to tell, for example, whether someone's offside. So what's what advice would you give on people's commentary about VAR? Does it ruin the game? Does it slow it down? Is it essential?

00:54:16 Nick Greene: I'm, you know, I'm someone who is, I think, more empathetic towards referees than most. And it does you know, I I think where it's going is they are is the worst to me when it ruins a celebration of a goal. You know, especially, you know, if, if, if the lot, if the flag goes up, the person stops celebrating, we get three minutes of review and then, okay. Everyone can start celebrating again. That's that goes against sort of the spirit of the, of, of the cathartic moment of a goal in soccer to me at least. And it's probably, you know, in general too much. My guess where it's going to go is it's going to be similar to football and basketball where you have, a coach's challenge, where the coach will have the manager will have maybe two opportunities a half

00:55:09 Andrew Keen: Yeah.

00:55:10 Nick Greene: To challenge and and to to to limit how much is is it it it takes away from the game, but it's definitely something that's, in flux. It was only introduced, you know, in the last ten years, so it's it's relatively young. But we're gonna see a lot of futzing and fidgeting with it.

00:55:30 Andrew Keen: Yeah. One of the most popular songs at all English football grounds is we all agree the referee's a wanker. Most people hate referees, although sometimes referees are stars. I remember the, final of the nineteen seventy four World Cup. It was an English referee. It was the closest we got to the World Cup final back then. Jack Taylor, who gave two penalties, one one to the Germans after about two. No. One one to the Dutch and then one to

00:55:58 Nick Greene: That was yeah. The Germans didn't even touch the ball. Right? That was Right.

00:56:02 Andrew Keen: Should we even if you wanna watch soccer like a genius, should you ignore the referee, or are they part of the game too?

00:56:09 Nick Greene: I mean, going back to cliches, I mean, if if you don't notice the rest referee, it means they're doing a great job. So, again, that's that's up to them. But then to go back on that, I mean, you remember Collina, the Italian referee who looked you know, had a huge bald head and the bulging eyes, and he was someone you had to notice.

00:56:27 Andrew Keen: Well, then we got into was wasn't when there are a number of stories about him later that his I think he was accused of corruption.

00:56:35 Nick Greene: Oh, I don't know about that. I did I may maybe. But he's someone that ever had just sort of agreed that was the best in the world, and he looked

00:56:44 Andrew Keen: Yeah. He was very, very well, again, the Italians, the new English that's close. They as close they're gonna get to the tournaments by providing a referee. Well, finally, Nick, you've been a good sport here dealing with my stupid questions. Football fans like to predict. That's part of the games, like all sports. What predictions? I mean, you'll probably be embarrassed, but we will conveniently forget. What predictions are you gonna make about, about the tournament?

00:57:13 Nick Greene: No, I like making picks just because it's a good way, like, to remind myself how stupid I am when they don't come true. I think, the group stage games will be pretty bad. It's because of the expanded format.

00:57:31 Andrew Keen: It's all they're always bad even when there are fewer teams, so it's gonna be particularly bad this year.

00:57:35 Nick Greene: It's gonna be particularly bad this year, which is a shame because that is also when you get to watch everyone and you get to see the Curaçaos and the Haitis and and and really actually maybe see teams you've never seen before and and and get to know them. But my hunch is that those will be pretty, you know, not great games. I've my prediction would be, you know what? I'm gonna say it. So I you you can know for a fact that I'm a moron. I think this is this is the year that England does it.

00:58:09 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I have to admit because of Harry Kane, I won't be on I don't generally, don't like England because they never have any Spurs players, but this time around. And then finally, finally, Nick, one piece of advice that I I would certainly give people, especially young Americans, is if you wanna watch soccer like a genius, don't bet on it.

00:58:28 Nick Greene: Yeah. That's yeah. Exactly. Don't you're you're not you're not gonna make any money. You're gonna, you're also gonna what are you gonna talk about? The bets you placed on the game was the most uninteresting conversation you would have about sports since, oh, I I I I put $5 on this happening. It didn't happen. Wow. Yeah. Don't bet on it. Watch the game. Enjoy it.

00:59:01 Andrew Keen: Well, there you have it. Enjoy the game. Don't bet on it. Enjoy it. That's the best advice. If you wanna watch soccer like a genius, it's a wonderful new book and, by Nick Greene, who not only knows an awful lot about the game. He's a Newcastle United fan, but he writes and thinks about it in an extremely entertaining and attractive way, and that reflects the book. Nick, congratulations on the book. It's out right now. And, I will think of you over in Berkeley during the summer when, Harry Kane lifts the trophy on whenever it is July.

00:59:36 Nick Greene: Maybe we can have a beer after that. Thank you for having me on.