How to Be Agreeably Disagreeable: Julia Minson on How to Argue with Your MAGA Father-in-Law

00:00:01 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It is Tuesday, 03/24/2026. Over the weekend, there was a piece in the New York Times. Wasn't really newsworthy since, in a way, it's barely surprising. A warm-up act perhaps to the disagreements of the 2028 presidential election — a piece about the rude exchange between Andy Beshear, the Democratic governor of Kentucky, who's supposedly going to be running for president as a Democrat, and JD Vance, of course, who is probably going to be running as the Republican candidate.

00:00:35 Andrew Keen: All sorts of nasty words exchanged between them. Beshear called Vance the most arrogant politician I've ever seen, and Vance responded — or at least his spokesperson responded — by suggesting that Beshear was just chasing headlines. One more example, of course, of public disagreement. We disagree very badly, it seems, these days. And it's appropriate today that there's a new book out about disagreeing better, by my guest, Julia Minson.

00:01:07 Andrew Keen: She teaches public policy at the Kennedy School — the Harvard Kennedy School for Public Policy in Boston — and she's joining us from her home in Lexington, Massachusetts. Julia, congratulations on the new book. You had an interesting piece in the New York Times, an op-ed piece a couple of months ago, about what science tells us about arguing with your father-in-law. A lot of the themes in the op-ed are in the book. What advice would you give Beshear and Vance — or at least Vance's spokesperson — about disagreeing better?

00:01:50 Julia Minson: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. It's a real pleasure. It is kind of a big day. Glad to be starting it here. You know, I mean, we have to think about what people's goals are in a disagreement.

00:02:05 Julia Minson: And a lot of my book talks about how people are often not very thoughtful about what their goals are. A lot of the time when we jump into a conversation with somebody that we disagree with, we think our goal is to change their mind — to persuade them, to tell them that they're wrong and that we're right, and fight with them about whatever it is — which is a pretty unrealistic goal. Now politicians' goals are different. Their goals are not necessarily to convince the person in front of them.

00:02:35 Julia Minson: It may be that the goal is to activate their base, or maybe the goal is to grab a headline. So I think one of the things that we have to think about carefully is: what's the person's goal, what is a realistic goal, and what should it be — before we start dispensing guidance.

00:02:56 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I don't suppose Vance would respond by agreeing with Beshear. I can't imagine him saying, yeah, I am the most arrogant politician ever. So let's get beyond Beshear and Vance.

00:03:09 Andrew Keen: Tell me about your father-in-law, Julia. I know you probably don't share his politics. Let's use him as a test case for how to disagree better. Tell me about the story that you lead with in the book.

00:03:27 Julia Minson: Yeah. So I think that's actually a great example, because that's something that a lot of people have in their lives — people who are very special to them and dear to them, who they respect and love, but who disagree with them profoundly on things that are very important. And that could be, you know, politics is the one that comes to mind, and that's the one where my father-in-law and I disagree. But we also disagree on a lot of things because we come from different generations — we parent our kids differently, we live our lives differently. And I think people frequently have the experience that I have had, where you notice and become aware of the disagreement, and then you have to decide what to do about it.

00:04:11 Julia Minson: You have to decide: am I going to go there, or am I going to sort of avoid the topic? And I think there are potential costs in both directions — and what the op-ed is about is having to navigate that choice.

00:04:28 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And it's a political one. I don't want to just talk about politics, but I know you disagreed on the ICE raids. Is that a generational thing or a political thing, or maybe even a gendered thing?

00:04:41 Julia Minson: You know, it's not even that we disagreed about the ICE raids specifically. We disagree about the role of immigration in general. He has consistently voted Republican throughout his life. He is a retired Army veteran who spent twenty years in the military — served in Vietnam, served in Korea.

00:05:09 Julia Minson: So he is very committed to American values and the American way of life, and has sacrificed a lot for this country. I'm a first-generation immigrant. So I feel like I have an appreciation for the immigrant experience that maybe a lot of people who were born and raised in the United States don't have. And so our disagreement has historically been political — our ideas about the right number of immigrants to let into the country are different.

00:05:46 Julia Minson: And ICE was just another thing in the news that was kind of worth discussing.

00:05:52 Andrew Keen: You're a first-generation immigrant. Where did you come from?

00:05:56 Julia Minson: I came from Russia, when I was in middle school. I came with my mom to Denver, Colorado.

00:06:03 Andrew Keen: Wow. And do you think — in terms of disagreeing better — do Russians disagree better or worse than Americans? Are there international differences here? I mean, you're a professor of disagreement and agreement — or is all the world struggling with the same problem of how to disagree better?

00:06:26 Julia Minson: That's interesting. You know, I think in my mind there are two fundamental problems, and they're almost the opposite of each other. There is one version of disagreement that's not great, which is very contentious disagreement — disagreement that turns into conflict.

00:06:45 Julia Minson: This is an important distinction I make: disagreement is not conflict. You and I could see the world differently and have a totally civil conversation about it. But there is something we see all the time — certainly a lot on social media and in the political sphere — where disagreement turns very ugly.

00:07:03 Julia Minson: So that's one problem. The other problem, which is perhaps even more common but looks very different, is people who don't want to speak up because they're afraid that the disagreement is going to turn into conflict. And so those are the folks who are sort of seething with resentment — feeling like their voices are being shut out — but they just don't want to engage with the drama. Both things are not great.

00:07:34 Julia Minson: And I do think there are different cultures where the norms are more direct and confrontational versus more polite. Depending on where you come from and what you're comfortable with, you're more or less likely to make one error rather than the other. Certainly, Russians tend to be pretty direct and confrontational in their disagreements — more so than Americans, I would say.

00:08:02 Andrew Keen: You know, it's funny. I came to this conversation thinking, well, I'm doing a show on how to disagree better, and this is a conversational show. So I thought I would try to disagree as much with you as I could and take whatever position you were taking and take the opposite position — which is kind of my brand. It's not unusual for me to do that on the show. But one of the things that strikes me is — and I don't know you very well — but even just knowing that you came as a teenager from Russia... at first, when you began talking, I couldn't really hear the foreign in you, so I was slightly surprised, because you sounded American to me.

00:08:45 Andrew Keen: But then once you acknowledged that you'd come from Russia, maybe your accent changed slightly. You relaxed a bit, became a bit more Russian. But whatever the reason, it made me more sympathetic, and I thought, well, how am I going to disagree with this lovely Russian immigrant now? So my serious point, Julia — and I know you're a social scientist — could one say that the more we know about somebody else, the easier it is for us to disagree better? It's probably not true with your father-in-law, because you probably know each other intimately.

00:09:17 Andrew Keen: But in other words — and it comes to the Internet and social media — we don't know the other person, and we're excellent at hating and disagreeing really badly.

00:09:36 Julia Minson: Yeah. I think that's true. One of the things I talk about in the book is research on how sharing a personal narrative about why you believe something — especially something vulnerable about that.

00:09:55 Julia Minson: So if I said, we should allow more immigrants in because, as an immigrant, I've had great success in this country, and because my life is so wonderful, we should have more people who have the opportunity to have this wonderful life that I'm enjoying — that sounds like bragging. So that's not helpful.

00:10:16 Julia Minson: But if I said, as an immigrant, I really struggled through parts of my life, and struggled to find acceptance in this country, and because of having those experiences I would like to give those opportunities to other people and make it easier — that resonates better. So that's a vulnerable revelation about why a topic matters to me.

00:10:38 Julia Minson: And the thing that's interesting about my father-in-law — you're right, we do know each other extremely well. But I think this is very common: when people are busy avoiding a topic, they don't actually know why the other person believes what they believe. And instead, what we tend to do is make a series of assumptions and stereotypes, filling in the missing information with whatever we make up in our heads. So a very common problem of disagreement is that people don't say, well, tell me about the origins of your beliefs.

00:11:15 Julia Minson: Like, how did you come to hold that view? Because we assume we know, and what we assume we know is negative, and then there's no point in asking.

00:11:27 Andrew Keen: Could disagreement also — and I'm not suggesting that you and your father-in-law don't like one another — but is disagreement, when it comes to people you know quite well, sometimes a manifestation of dislike? We have all these famous stories of Thanksgiving relatives — brothers, uncles, parents — sitting around and loathing one another. Should we just accept that disagreement is sometimes a manifestation of dislike?

00:11:55 Julia Minson: No. I don't think so. Disagreement — first of all, there's nothing wrong with disagreement.

00:12:03 Julia Minson: If we disagree politically, or about parenting, or about how to run our business, those are actually all good things. The reason we have democracy is to enable people to disagree politically. The reason we recruit people with different experiences onto work teams is because we want different ideas. The problems start when I reach the conclusion that only an uninformed, unintelligent, potentially evil person could hold the view that you hold.

00:12:33 Julia Minson: And that's usually how disagreement becomes conflict. So when we're talking about those families at Thanksgiving who can't stand each other, it's because they know the other person has different views and have reached an assumption about where that person comes from. So, you know, grandpa doesn't like immigrants because he's just a racist. You've kind of made up a story about grandpa in your head.

00:12:59 Julia Minson: That probably wouldn't be how grandpa would explain himself if you asked him. And so most of the time when disagreement becomes conflict, it's a result of inaccurate information.

00:13:13 Andrew Keen: Is social media and the online environment a cause or a consequence of this epidemic of poor disagreement, sour disagreement?

00:13:23 Julia Minson: Why not both? Honestly — people love blaming social media for this.

00:13:31 Andrew Keen: People blame social media for everything, Julia.

00:13:34 Julia Minson: Yes, it's so convenient. And I do think social media has a role to play, but the way I think it plays that role is it just makes it easier for people to do what we naturally want to do.

00:13:50 Julia Minson: Long before social media, people disagreed with their parents and grandparents about politics. Long before the Internet or any modern technologies, you had intergenerational conflict, you had political conflict. There's a very basic feature of human nature where we like agreement. When you are in agreement with the group of people you're with, all sorts of social and emotional benefits flow from that. So we just don't like disagreement as a species. And social media has made it easier to follow those instincts.

00:14:32 Julia Minson: So it's become much, much easier to only listen to and only consume information that you agree with, because it's just served to you by the algorithm. You don't even have to make any effort anymore. So it's exacerbating a problem that's a deeply human problem.

00:14:52 Andrew Keen: I have to admit a degree of ambivalence about books or arguments that begin with "what science tells us" and then dot dot dot.

00:15:02 Julia Minson: Mhm.

00:15:03 Andrew Keen: Your New York Times piece leads with "what science tells us about argument." Your editor came up with that title. But your book and your professional identity is rooted in being a social scientist and a professor of public policy. Do you think that even the idea of science helping us disagree better is, for some people at least, deeply objectionable?

00:15:31 Julia Minson: Yeah. I think that's possible. There are people for whom the idea of science telling them what to eat or what medicine to take is deeply objectionable. But the scientific method is sort of the best toolkit we have for figuring out what's true from what's not true. It's not perfect, and part of what's built into the toolkit is self-correction.

00:15:59 Julia Minson: But I think especially when it comes to conflict — conflict is a special thing, because on one hand, we're all not terrible at it. You get up in the morning, you get breakfast, you get to work, and rarely do you get punched in the face throughout that process. You interact with maybe dozens of people, and somehow you manage to navigate your social world and be okay.

00:16:29 Julia Minson: So in some sense, we're all quite good at navigating other humans. On the other hand, we are consistently wrong about things that intuitively seem effective. And that's where social science is very useful — it can separate the things that our parents told us that are definitely true and we should keep doing from the things our parents told us that just happen to be off.

00:16:59 Andrew Keen: Does the science — the social science — agree with itself? When you look at the stuff on COVID, for example, I'm sure there are lots of people at the Kennedy School and other fancy schools who talk about some sort of consensus, but people disagree on that. Is the science in agreement on disagreement, Julia?

00:17:22 Julia Minson: Well, we've been disagreeing a lot longer than we've been dealing with COVID. And certainly I think the hallmark of the scientific community is that we get to argue with each other. But politely.

00:17:35 Andrew Keen: In a very scientific way.

00:17:40 Julia Minson: You've never read a review letter. We're not polite — or at least not as polite as I think could be helpful sometimes. But there is no perfect consensus on some things, while on other things we can largely agree. And that's the purpose of data. Behavioral science is not philosophy — you don't get to make endless arguments. You bring data to bear on the problem. And if your experiment tests your hypothesis and is seen as credible by other researchers, then you win the argument. That's the end of it.

00:18:19 Julia Minson: We haven't done that for every aspect of human behavior, but we've done it for a lot. And part of the reason I wrote the book is because I think people out in the world don't realize how much research there is around disagreement — and I kind of wanted that research to get out there.

00:18:40 Andrew Keen: Julia, we live in a very therapeutic culture — more and more, young people in particular feel anxious and go to therapists often. Their anxiety is rooted in their disagreements with each other and their parents and the world. How much of this is generational? Are young people — particularly those whose lives, it seems, have been affected by social media — struggling with this? Is it bound up with a kind of repression? We're doing a show next week about a therapist, a professor, who argues that the problem with young people these days is that they're trying to be perfect. And of course, even the mildest disagreement can seem like a catastrophe to some of these kids — and I've got kids.

00:19:28 Julia Minson: Right, right, right. I think disagreement is stressful.

00:19:35 Julia Minson: That's the flip side of enjoying agreement. And I think we have created an environment where we don't practice disagreement. One of the things you see less and less of is people really having an argument where they still walk away as friends, with respect for each other.

00:20:01 Julia Minson: And I think that's part of the problem — we don't have the skills to say, well, I believe this, and I disagree with you on that. Let's have a conversation about it, and it doesn't have to be dramatic, it doesn't have to be traumatic, and we don't have to break up our relationship at the end of it. But people are hesitant to have those conversations because they expect a lot of drama. And I do think that produces anxiety, and I think we do a disservice to our kids by not teaching them to disagree better.

00:20:42 Andrew Keen: Do you have children yourself?

00:20:44 Julia Minson: Yes. I have three daughters.

00:20:48 Andrew Keen: Wow. And you had time to write this book — maybe it was a good excuse not to talk to them. But in all seriousness, Julia, when it comes to kids, there is a power relationship, an imbalance. Is this book designed for disagreements between equals?

00:21:07 Andrew Keen: I mean, when it comes to parents and daughters or sons, at some point a good parent has to say, look — I'm older than you, I have more authority, and I'm not going to pay for this, I'm not going to allow you to do this — and it doesn't matter whether or not we disagree. That's just the end of the conversation.

00:21:22 Julia Minson: Well, that's a great question because it gets to this very interesting idea of what power is. I teach negotiations at the Kennedy School, and we often talk about how your power in the negotiation really comes from what you're going to do when the negotiation breaks down.

00:21:50 Julia Minson: And quite often, the trouble people have is they overestimate how easily they can shut the conversation down and go off on their merry way. Anybody who has had kids can picture the situation where you say, we're in a hurry, I have to get to work, you have to get to school, I don't have time for this conversation.

00:22:14 Julia Minson: I'm the parent. I know better. Here's what we're going to do. End of conversation.

00:22:19 Andrew Keen: Shut up.

00:22:20 Julia Minson: Or, you know, put on your shoes and get in the car.

00:22:24 Andrew Keen: Stop crying.

00:22:24 Julia Minson: Then you have a seven-year-old throwing a hissy fit on the kitchen floor, and half an hour later that child is still crying. You're frustrated. She is late to school, you're late to work. And you are thinking to yourself, god, I wish I had explained to her exactly why Fruity Pebbles are not a nutritious breakfast instead of assuming I could just shut down the conversation and go on with my day. So kids are a great example of somebody who doesn't have to be in a conversation if they don't want to be.

00:23:03 Julia Minson: If a teenager doesn't want to listen, they can just walk out of the room. And if you're a physician and your patient doesn't want to listen to a recommendation, they can just walk out of your office and never come back. And so we have many of these conversations where we say, well, I'm the expert or I'm the adult, and therefore I'm going to get my way — and we don't realize that the other person has the option of just leaving.

00:23:29 Julia Minson: And if we want to continue having the conversation, then we need to be doing something different.

00:23:36 Andrew Keen: You also run a lab. You're a consultant alongside your day job at the Kennedy School. So you deal a lot with corporations. You have a lot of private-company clients, and I'm quoting your "Disagreeing Better" website: "You know the feeling — the silence, the side-eye."

00:23:58 Andrew Keen: Is there a lot of repression in corporations, Julia?

00:24:01 Andrew Keen: I mean, I'm fortunate that I don't have to work in a corporation. I think I'd last about ten seconds. Is that the real audience for this book?

00:24:11 Andrew Keen: People who work in large corporations, maybe government agencies — IBM, universities — where people sort of dress their disagreements up? Or perhaps repress them?

00:24:28 Julia Minson: Yeah. So, again, we love agreement. Agreement is nice. Disagreement is risky.

00:24:36 Julia Minson: And when I say risky, I don't mean some nebulous risk to my ego or self-esteem. I just know that if I disagree, the conversation is going to be longer. It might turn ugly. I might upset the other person. And so as a person with a differing opinion, I am always doing the math in my head: is this worth it?

00:25:02 Julia Minson: Now I think we do that in every group. We do that in families, in classrooms, on school boards, certainly at work. The difference is that at work, the reason we brought people into the room is because we want to hear their opinions.

00:25:16 Julia Minson: Like, the reason you are with your family is because you just got born into your family. And so you might not have an important task or mission you have to accomplish with those people. If you don't speak up about politics at the dinner table, there's really nothing lost.

00:25:35 Julia Minson: Maybe you could have had an interesting conversation with your father-in-law, but if you didn't have the interesting conversation, it kind of doesn't matter. But if you're in a workplace environment and you're about to make a disastrous decision as a team, and somebody has misgivings about it and they don't speak up — because they don't want to be the pain in the ass, they don't want the meeting to go longer, they don't want their boss to be resentful.

00:26:04 Julia Minson: They don't want to stick out. That's a real problem. And so companies and certain government agencies have a genuine need to make people speak up — and that is at odds with an individual's own preference to keep quiet and get on with their day.

00:26:29 Andrew Keen: So what are you saying to the person who sits in a meeting and knows that the team, for one reason or another, is making a really bad call? Should they speak up — especially if they're a junior person around that table?

00:26:46 Julia Minson: So this is an interesting way of thinking about it — companies have told people to speak up and speak truth to power and practice radical candor for —

00:27:01 Andrew Keen: All that stuff, which they teach at Harvard Business School and Harvard Law School, and which seems to have no impact on the world.

00:27:09 Julia Minson: Right. Because that's something that's good for the company, but is in direct opposition to the self-interest of the individual. So why should the person do it? And so I think what we should be doing differently is twofold.

00:27:25 Julia Minson: One — the leader of any given team needs to be spending a lot more time proving with behavior that dissent is actually welcome. So instead of saying, oh, you need to disagree with me because it's safe to disagree with me and I really value your opinion, you need to show evidence that opposing views are truly valued. And on the flip side, the person sitting there — the junior person sitting on their hands — they need a way of speaking up that makes them feel like it's not going to cause confrontation and drama.

00:28:05 Julia Minson: How do you disagree? How do you speak up in a way that's not inflammatory, so that you can make your point but minimize the risk of offending everyone in the room, especially your boss? So there's a whole ecosystem happening with all the people in the room, and they all have a role to play in creating a different environment around this stuff.

00:28:28 Andrew Keen: In other words, the Steve Jobs strategy of getting all the most disagreeable people and putting them in a building and waving a pirate flag outside is probably not very wise.

00:28:41 Julia Minson: Well, it worked well for Steve Jobs. But what you're doing is —

00:28:45 Andrew Keen: But not for everyone else at Apple who —

00:28:48 Julia Minson: Not everyone else. Right. And not all the people who might have had a lot of interesting things to say but didn't want to work in that environment.

00:28:56 Andrew Keen: And what about the Jeff Bezos one-hour rule, or the no-meetings rule? Is Bezos onto something too? He doesn't seem to be someone particularly shy about disagreement.

00:29:09 Julia Minson: Yeah. I mean, I think part of our corporate culture is that being very direct and somewhat confrontational is prized and admired, and those kinds of people often get to the very top of the hierarchy. And that then propagates the idea that that's how you have to be. But there's definite collateral damage along the way — you make people feel like their opinions are not welcome unless they're willing to shout over others in order to be heard.

00:29:47 Julia Minson: That leaves out a lot of people.

00:29:49 Andrew Keen: In other words, the Zuckerberg thesis of moving fast and breaking things might not be so wise. Your book is out today — How to Disagree Better. Julia, as you won't be surprised to know, it's not going to get on the front page of the New York Times or the Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal, because there are other events in the world today. Would you like to get your book in the hands of some people in Tehran and Tel Aviv and Beirut and Washington DC? Would that help?

00:30:26 Julia Minson: Well, I think a lot of people who are in the business of diplomacy already know a lot of the ideas in the book. We teach a lot of folks in public service at the Kennedy School.

00:30:43 Julia Minson: And what I found through teaching them is that people who do a lot of these things naturally are the sorts of people who go into the Foreign Service, and then they're coached and mentored by senior people and kind of hone their craft over time. Part of what this book is really useful for is giving a structure and a scaffolding to a lot of those ideas — to help train people up faster, to help communicate about these ideas. But yeah, I'd like to disseminate it as widely as possible.

00:31:19 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Using the word "scaffolding" may reveal a kind of Freudian slip here in terms of public hanging. Certainly, Donald Trump is not very friendly to the idea of diplomacy and public service in that sense. The State Department in the US and elsewhere — these are people who are trained professionally in disagreeing better. Is that fair?

00:31:43 Andrew Keen: I mean, are you really just basically making the same argument that diplomats around the world make? Because the ultimate consequence of disagreeing badly is war.

00:32:00 Julia Minson: I mean, that's exactly right. And certainly the points I make in the book: one is that disagreement does not need to lead to conflict — which is certainly something many diplomats would agree with. Another point, and there's a lot of social science around this, is that we fundamentally misunderstand the people on the other side of most disagreements. People tend to assume that their counterparts are more extreme in their views than they really are.

00:32:41 Julia Minson: We tend to assume that our counterparts are more simplistic and homogeneous in their views. We tend to assume that our counterparts dislike us and dehumanize us more than they really do. So a lot of conflict is bred in misunderstanding. And a lot of the work of diplomacy is actually figuring out what's truly going on on the other side — spending hours and days to really test your assumptions and understand the other side.

00:33:19 Julia Minson: And that's statecraft.

00:33:22 Andrew Keen: But there are some issues, of course, Julia, where it's not on the one hand or on the other. It's not a matter of seeing somebody else's position. In some conflicts — certainly from my point of view, the Russian invasion of Ukraine — there's a bad guy and a good guy, or a relatively innocent party and a very guilty one. And whether or not Putin picked up your book from where you were born wouldn't really change anything, would it?

00:33:55 Julia Minson: No. I don't think it would change much for Putin. And again, this goes back to the question of what is your goal. I don't suspect that President Putin's goal is to sit down and have a thoughtful conversation with President Zelensky and come to more deeply understand his perspective, so that they can have a nice relationship going forward.

00:34:23 Julia Minson: The man has made very clear what his goals are, and that is definitely not one of them. So the book is really designed for people who are interested in having better relationships with people they disagree with. And that could be because this is somebody you work with.

00:34:44 Julia Minson: It could be somebody you live with, or it could be just this feeling that many of us have that like half the people in the world are crazy — and that can't be good for any of us. And if you sort of examine that set of beliefs and talk to those folks, it turns out that many of them are not nearly as crazy as we assumed a priori.

00:35:04 Andrew Keen: Well, this book is not going to be sent off to Moscow and President Putin. Let's end on a positive note. What did your father-in-law think about you writing about him in the New York Times? And how are things — we're still a ways away from Thanksgiving — but when you get together with your father-in-law and the subject turns to politics or immigration, are things a bit better now?

00:35:30 Julia Minson: Things are great. Things are fine. We talk, and we disagree, and I respect him, and I love him. And he respects me, and he loves me.

00:35:40 Julia Minson: And every time something happens in the world where I expect him to see it differently, I go through the same moment of, oh — do I want to go there? Do I want to rock the boat? And every time I do, I'm sort of pleased to learn something new and interesting, and I haven't regretted it yet.

00:36:09 Andrew Keen: And how are your daughters dealing with this book, Julia? When they disagree with you — when you start screaming at them to put their shoes on or get out of the house because you're late — do they tell you to read your own book?

00:36:20 Julia Minson: Yeah. Well, my husband certainly tells me to read my own book. Chapter four of the book is about one of my daughters. We disagree plenty, and I've learned a lot from those experiences.

00:36:35 Julia Minson: And I do think that disagreeing with our teenagers is one of the hardest things we do — and many of us have to do it day in and day out.

00:36:46 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And Julia, I can guarantee you — I've got kids in their twenties — it doesn't get any easier. It just gets more disagreeable when they reach their twenties.

00:36:55 Julia Minson: Or maybe they'll need the book then.

00:36:57 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Well, I'll probably send it to them, although they'll blame me for it one way or the other. Most —

00:37:02 Julia Minson: They can blame me.

00:37:03 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Well, they'll blame Julia Minson. Most agreeable conversation on disagreeing better. Julia, congratulations on the book. Lovely to talk to you, and continue the good work.

00:37:14 Andrew Keen: It's an important subject. Thank you so much.

00:37:16 Julia Minson: Thank you, Andrew.