Gatsby Without the Romance: Michael Wolff on Why Trump and Epstein Are the Same Person

00:41 Andrew Keen Hello everybody. A couple of days ago we did a show with Jason Pack from the Disorder podcast, who suggested that when it comes to the Epstein scandal, the Anglo-American media elite had a degree of complicity in terms of not telling the truth about what really was happening. One very prominent figure in that Anglo-American elite, particularly the American media elite, is my guest today, Michael Wolff. He doesn't need much of an introduction—best-selling writer, commentator, extremely controversial and interesting man. Michael, welcome to Keen on America.
01:21 Michael Wolff I don't exactly know how you get promoted into the elite, but... I suppose.
01:28 Andrew Keen Well, you get promoted by knowing Michael Wolff, don't you?
01:31 Michael Wolff I—perhaps, perhaps that would be it, that I am the center of the elite. Yes, why not?
01:39 Andrew Keen Michael, is Jason right? Are the—
01:41 Michael Wolff Well, I don't know who Jason is, so I'm—I've adopted a policy of not commenting on every Tom, Dick, and Harry and Jason's assertion about anything. So, I have no idea. Yes.
01:58 Andrew Keen Well, let me rephrase it then. Let's take Jason out of it. Let's just suggest it's my idea that this Anglo-American media—and I know you don't particularly care for the word elite, but let's just use it—knew a little bit more about the Epstein scandal than they were letting on.
02:16 Michael Wolff Well, I actually—no, I actually think they knew nothing about it. The Anglo-American media are dumb, and they were never interested in this. They tried to avoid the subject—avoid the subject because they found it, I think they found it unseemly. They didn't know their position in it. I think, you know, this Epstein story has been going on for a very, very, very long time, and they avoided it. I just don't think they liked this—I think they were uncomfortable with it, I guess is the best term.
02:54 Michael Wolff And you know, I mean, I have tried to get various, various—virtually everyone in the Anglo-American established media interested in this story for a very long time. And they were not interested. They were—let's see if I can describe the affect. The affect was sort of disdain, I think.
Part 2: The "Ick Factor" and Corporate Resistance
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03:19 Michael Wolff You know, when this broke in its latest chapter—and there are many chapters along the way in which it has broken—but when it broke this time in its biggest way, I did a podcast with David Remnick. Now, there would be someone from the elite. And he was dismissive of the whole thing. "Why do you think this is important? You don't really think that this is important? This is not really..."
03:45 Michael Wolff Again, you know, I think there was a way of seeing Jeffrey Epstein as a sleazebucket—not inaccurately, obviously—but a sleazebucket so outside of our class and concerns that it was unnecessary and unseemly to address it. But the idea that the elite knew more than they were saying, that's just bullshit conspiracy by people who have perhaps never met someone from the elite.
04:18 Andrew Keen Michael, you knew Epstein. You were involved in all sorts of correspondence with him. Why do you think—or why did you think—it was a more important story than perhaps Remnick and other members of the elite?
04:32 Michael Wolff Well, you know, I mean, I don't really think of things in terms of importance or newsworthiness. I always thought, "My God, this isn't just an incredible story. How did this happen? Who is this guy? Where did he come from? How is it that he came to attract such a broad spectrum of people across so many disciplines and interests and at phenomenal levels of success?" That this was a guy who certainly reflected something about the time we lived in. And that's what was interesting to me.
Part 3: The Failed Book Project
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05:15 Andrew Keen Did you ever consider writing a book? You've written a series of books on Trump which have done extremely well.
05:21 Michael Wolff No, and I have said many times that I certainly have considered writing a book, have certainly tried to write a book. And none of the publishers who I deal with on a regular basis—and who often have made quite a bit of money—were interested. They just didn't want it. I remember one said, "You know, it's just—it's the ick factor."
05:46 Michael Wolff So, I think that is the response to the established media. And I know in other situations, in other outlets—because I've also talked documentary films, docudramas about this—there's been a kind of universal corporate resistance. And that was like, "You know, this is just too complicated a story to tell," I think in the end is what people were saying. "In the end, here is this guy who is, by sort of universal consensus, the monster of our time, and then to try to bring nuance to him, to his story, I think became a problem for everyone."
06:33 Andrew Keen I have to admit, I'm astonished on two levels. Firstly, I'm surprised that any publisher would tell you that they don't want to work with you because you've been—
06:41 Michael Wolff Well, they didn't say they didn't want to work with me! They said, "Why do you want to do this? Can't you do something else?" Everybody, you know, I don't have any problem with selling books, quite the opposite. But I had a problem with selling this book in particular.
Part 4: Trump, Lawyers, and the "Gatsby" Figure
Timecode Speaker Dialogue
07:07 Andrew Keen You use the word nuance. Were they ambivalent because of the nuance you wanted to bring to this story? They just didn't want to have anything to do with it? And what dates are we talking about?
07:18 Michael Wolff This would have been the last time I—I mean, I've tried to sell this book several times, but the last time I tried to sell this book was in the fall. This fall. So, not that long ago.
07:31 Michael Wolff And yeah, I think the nuance was a problem. I think the consensus of where this should be—and I think everyone was very attentive to being in the—nobody wants to be outside of the consensus on this story particularly. Actually, on most stories.
07:51 Michael Wolff And I think they didn't really know quite where that was. And I think just at this moment in time, on a broad range of issues, everybody wants to steer clear of controversy. I also think the Donald Trump aspect of this was of no inconsiderable concern to them. I mean, Donald Trump getting sued by Donald Trump is something that people would rather avoid. And I think that clearly played into it.
08:21 Andrew Keen So what's the story, Michael? If one of these publishers called you up after this conversation perhaps and said, "We've changed our mind, we think maybe we would like a Michael Wolff book on Epstein," what's the story?
08:34 Michael Wolff Well, I mean, the story has changed since the fall. Obviously, there's much more information out there, much more material. So I suppose the story would be—you know, I think probably the story is still: who is this guy? How did he come to be? What does he stand for? What does he reflect?
09:50 Michael Wolff So in a sense, it's a story not about Epstein, but about ourselves. All good stories are.
10:01 Michael Wolff You knew Epstein. Was he an interesting man? Tell me about him. What was he like?
10:09 Michael Wolff No, I think he was an incredibly interesting, mysterious, compelling figure. I mean, you have to ask yourself why did all of these people from such a broad range of disciplines in public life—political life, financial life, literary life, diplomatic life—why did they all come to find Jeffrey Epstein of interest?
10:40 Michael Wolff I mean, there's obviously that conspiracy theory that says he was blackmailing them all. I rather think that is certainly not true. I think they were there because they liked being there. I think because he was their friend.
Part 5: The "Middleman" and the Last Days of Epstein
Timecode Speaker Dialogue
10:55 Michael Wolff Jeffrey Epstein was a middleman in a city of middlemen. And one of the things that distinguished him from other middlemen, who are by their nature insincere, is that I think he was truly interested in the people he was in the middle of. Now, knowing many of these people, that is actually quite rare.
11:18 Andrew Keen And if he didn't have these criminal sexual proclivities, do you think he would have just been another middleman in a city of middlemen?
11:27 Michael Wolff Yeah, I mean, and maybe a particularly successful one. I mean, he already was a particularly successful one, but he would have stayed a successful one, I suppose. Yes. His sexual life, his sexual fetishes, his sexual depravity was clearly at war with his other intention to be a highly respectable person in New York City.
12:00 Andrew Keen The best thing I've read on Epstein was the New York Times detailed history of him... in that he comes across as very much of a kind of Gatsby-esque figure.
12:12 Michael Wolff I thought that was a terrible piece, by the way.
12:15 Andrew Keen Why?
12:16 Michael Wolff I just didn't think—you know, one of the things that when you are close to a story, to a very public story, and then you read about it, you certainly immediately know, "Oh my God, the media gets everything wrong." I mean, they really run it. And I'd say they run it in this story—I don't know, maybe they get 30% right.
12:43 Michael Wolff The Times was just retailing other people's reports. And worth pointing out that the Times—this story has been available for many, many years, and the Times did not write it.
13:00 Michael Wolff If you want something revealing about this, I would actually argue that what I have written—because I'm the only person who actually had firsthand knowledge—you ought to be reading me.
13:14 Michael Wolff I would say for viewers, the piece that I wrote, a piece called "The Last Days of Jeffrey Epstein," which is in my book Too Famous, you'll learn more about Jeffrey Epstein from that piece than from anything else that's been written about Epstein.
Part 6: Trump vs. Epstein — "The Same Person"
Timecode Speaker Dialogue
15:40 Michael Wolff Central to the Jeffrey Epstein story is and always has been his best friend over the longest period of time, probably the closest relationship both men have had in life. And that is Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump.
16:00 Andrew Keen Is then Trump a kind of at least semi-legal version of Epstein?
16:04 Michael Wolff I have always said that they are the same person. And the drama of this story is that one ends up dead in the darkest prison in America, and the other in the White House. That's pretty dramatic.
17:05 Andrew Keen Of course, every Gatsby needs a Fitzgerald.
17:09 Michael Wolff Or a Daisy, I'm not sure which.
17:13 Andrew Keen The New York Times piece I read suggested that Epstein did sometimes fall in love, especially with blonde Scandinavian types. Is that true?
17:23 Michael Wolff You know, I don't know if that's true or not. In some ways, Epstein was a person obviously with deep intimacy problems. His ideal way to spend time was not with women; it was actually with men of accomplishment sitting around his dining room table and deconstructing the affairs of the world.
18:16 Michael Wolff I'm a writer. I literally write sentences. I don't do anything else but that. And I've had a quite a successful career in working with book publishers. This is how books get published, at least in my world.
19:07 Andrew Keen Michael, as you know much better than me, your association/involvement with Epstein is controversial. Has this whole episode made you question your role, not with Epstein, but broadly in this elite?
19:25 Michael Wolff Absolutely not. I mean, this is what I do. You get a particular kind of view from me, and often a view you would not get anywhere else. You can get a view from the New York Times if that's the incredibly limited aperture you want, or you can get a much different kind of view from me.
Part 7: The Future and the Trump Legacy
Timecode Speaker Dialogue
20:23 Andrew Keen Will we ever get back to normal after Trump leaves the stage, dies, or just retires and goes back to Mar-a-Lago?
20:30 Michael Wolff Well, I'm not sure going back to Mar-a-Lago will do it. He's done that once before and still managed to command everyone's attention. Attention is the name of the game. But having said that, no—nothing goes back to the way it was. Everything adapts to the way things are.
20:53 Michael Wolff But in the case of Trump, I think Trump is sui generis. I don't think there's anyone who can replace him, who will replace him. He is an anomalous figure in politics, and when he departs, what replaces him will not be another iteration of Donald Trump.
21:35 Michael Wolff I don't particularly think Trump is interested in a legacy. I'm sure he doesn't even understand history in that sense. I think this is all about him. Everything he does is about him. So he could give a fuck if it's not about him anymore.
22:00 Andrew Keen So in a sense, it's Gatsby after Gatsby.
22:04 Michael Wolff Gatsby's legacy... the problem with Gatsby is that that's really a book about romance. And one of the things about both Trump and Epstein is that they are not in any way about romance. Which is partly what makes them so vile.
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