Documenting America: How to See Beyond the Algorithm

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Hello, my name is Andrew Keen.

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Welcome to Keen on America, the Daily Show
about everything that matters with the

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world's leading commentators and thinkers.

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Hello everybody.

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It is Sunday the 8th of February,
2026, Super Bowl Day, the day where

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everyone or all Americans supposedly
gather around their televisions.

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One of the few days of unity
left in the United States.

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My guest today has an interesting
take, I think, on the idea of

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unity and minorities and different
opinions in the United States.

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Erika Dilday is the executive
producer of POVA very distinguished

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filmmaker who's focused on.

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Other angles on America, and
she's joining us from New York.

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Erika, will you be
watching the Super Bowl?

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I absolutely will.

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I am all Patriots all the way.

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I don't care about the predictions
that the Seahawks are the favorite.

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I know that we're gonna be looking at
a New England to win at the end of the.

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Well, we will see on that one, I
hope, uh, I'm not sure if I have

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any, we, uh, in California or
certainly Northern California,

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don't have any dogs in the fight.

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The, uh, the game of course is at Santa
Clara, but Seattle will beat the 49 ERs.

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It will be a day, uh, later today
where people will talk about

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America's 250th year anniversary.

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Lots of.

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Politics, of course.

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Uh, bad Bunny will be playing.

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Who, uh, uh, who will
incite some controversy?

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Um, should it be a day, Erika, where
America celebrates its togetherness.

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I hope so.

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I am.

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One of the things that I do find a little
disturbing is the idea of these alternate

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halftime shows and the idea that somehow
bad Bunny isn't quite American, which

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is a little bit ridiculous, but, uh,
I'm hoping that just the idea of idea

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playing ball and being together and,
you know, hopefully putting politics

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aside for one day will reign and, uh.

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You know, right now it's kind
of east coast versus West coast

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as opposed to anything else.

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Your life is spent, uh, as a
cinematographer, producer and director,

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your co-directing and an upcoming series
with Ken Burns on Emancipation to Exodus.

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What in your mind is the role of film
and documentary film in particular

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in the cultural history of America?

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Uh, I believe it's really important
in telling the stories of who we are.

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I mean, one thing about emancipation to
Exodus and the reason that I really wanted

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to work on this with Ken is it's about
the period from the end of the Civil War

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to the great migration out of the South.

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And that period of time I think is one
of the most misunderstood in history.

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It was a time of great creation.

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It was also a time of great destruction.

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And I think one of the things that
doesn't happen enough in this country

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is that we tell the real story of
what happened and how things were.

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There's, there's, there's just not enough
of that and a willingness to engage and

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talk about these topics and really look
at the truth because it tells us who we

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are and where we should be going, and.

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I also think that with other films that
we do, um, like for instance on POV,

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we tell stories from a lot of different
point, different points of view.

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POV stands for point of view,
and we look at how people think,

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what, what motivates them.

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Where they're from, what they love
and treasure, and I think that ends up

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bringing us closer together because in
the end, so much of that is the same.

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It's, and, but it's important
to hear it from the person

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whose story it is as opposed to
someone else telling it for them.

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Last Sunday, Ken Burns actually was
on, um, meet the Press, um, and he

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articulated in 2025, of course he's made
a, a series about the American Revolution

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that's attracting a lot of interest.

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He articulated the degree
of optimism about us.

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Uh, future.

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Do you share that optimism?

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Ken is definitely more optimistic
than I am, but that's a lot

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of what I like about him.

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But one of the things he's, you know,
he's one of the smartest men I know,

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and he's also a great student of
history, and one of the things that I

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think you see in our history is that.

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Eventually we come out on the side
of progress and often there is,

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you know, some sort of backsliding
on progress within this country.

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But eventually, I do believe that the
foundations we were built on were that.

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Everybody should have a chance.

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Everybody's human, everybody should work
together to create a democracy that values

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and celebrates and appreciates different
opinions and ideas, and I just feel

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that that's where we're going to end up.

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Again, I don't feel that we're right
there right now, but I feel that's

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where we're going to end up again.

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You are from a, a very interesting family.

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Your father was the first black television
station manager in the United States,

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went from Boston to Mississippi,
so a kind of reverse migration.

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What does your family's history tell
us about whether or not we should be

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optimistic about the American future?

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Uh, I will say one of the thing, one of
the things about my dad was he was both

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optimistic and realistic and he believed
in action, which is something that has

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spurred me through most of my life.

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If you want something to happen,
don't look to your left and to your

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right for someone to make it happen.

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It's up to you to make it happen, and
so in my life, when I see something

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that I don't think is the way it
should be, I am inspired to do

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something, to do something about it.

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If I don't think something's fair, then.

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You know, it's up to me to make it fair.

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If I see something that needs to be
changed, it's up to me to change it.

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Uh, you know, and he said, those of
us who want change don't really have

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the luxury of being comfortable.

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So I am very comfortable in a state
of discomfort because I feel that you

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have to shake things up to make change.

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Erika, you're the executive
producer of POV point of view.

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You've dedicated your life to Dr.

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Why films wrote books, um, it about films.

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I know your, your father was also
in the television business, which

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is slightly different from yours.

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What is it about films that
you think reflects a kind of

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intellectual ri richness when it
comes to different points of view?

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One of the things that I love about
documentary films in particular is

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that they're both truth and art at
the same time, and I think they really

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offer the viewer a chance to immerse
themselves completely in something.

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You know, news stories, if they're
really good, they're useful at the

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time and they may be referenced later.

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A good documentary is something that
you can watch that's timeless and that

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will always provide you with a reel.

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Sense of what it was like to be
in a certain place or a certain

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time or hear a certain idea.

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I mean, the documentary that uh,
was uh, probably the start for me

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in terms of realizing how much I
love documentary was when I was in

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school and saw the film Hoop Dreams.

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It's, uh, Chicago film about
two young men who are, you know,

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hoping to play college ball and.

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That film changed the way I looked at how
you could hear and tell a person's story.

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And you, the thing with a good
documentary is you have to feel something,

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you know, you hear it, you see it.

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You are, you know, enveloped in that world
for the time that you're watching it.

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And I don't think anybody walks
away without feeling something.

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And it's that immersive quality and that
ability to transport you that I think.

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Documentary does better than any
other form of reality storytelling.

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Tell me what you do at POV.

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Um, what is it that you add to the
conversation that isn't done elsewhere?

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Uh, sure.

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Well, one of the things, we're the
longest running documentary program on

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American television and, you know, for,
we're going into our 39th season, and

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for 39 years we've been telling stories
that, you know, sometimes otherwise

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wouldn't have made it, uh, someplace else.

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Uh, POV has always looked for.

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The most beautiful documentaries, and
sometimes that beauty means telling a

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story that you wouldn't hear otherwise.

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You know, one of the films that, uh,
we did, which really sort of set I

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think the, uh, scene for what, uh.

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Uh, POV was going to be was the
Film Tongues Untied and, uh, it's a

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documentary by the filmmaker Marlon Riggs.

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It, uh, was in season four in, in
1989 on uh, POV, and it brought to the

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world, uh, exploration into what it
means to be black and gay in America.

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And it was.

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You know, again, a beautiful
film for so many reasons.

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Do you cover every angle, A POV?

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I mean, I'm guessing, uh, Erika,
from, from what you're saying,

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that it, it tends to attract in
your association with P-B-S-A-A,

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a progressive audience, a diverse
audience, uh, a black, brown audience.

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Um, well, do you focus
on, uh, some of the more.

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C conservative, uh, communities in
the United States in terms of POV.

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Yeah, well the, first of all, our audience
is mostly white, which is interesting.

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It's mostly white, mostly middle aged and
older, so that part of it is interesting.

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I mean, it is definitely people
with open minds and I would say it.

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Definitely because it is public television
and a lot more people, I think, who

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are more progressive watch public
television, but I don't think it's

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programmed for a progressive audience.

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Uh, at least in my programming,
I, whenever we look at films and

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look at what to bring on, I think
what does the American audience.

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Need to see and need to hear what
viewpoints are not being talked about,

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what things aren't being said, and how
do we, you know, expose people to those.

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Like for instance, we've gotta film
the Bitter Pill, which is about

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suing the opioid, uh, industry.

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And it's from the point of view of
a white West Virginia lawyer who is

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frustrated by the number of deaths
and overdoses in their community.

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Uh, I never asked the people, you
know, in that film their politics,

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but it doesn't strike me as a
particularly liberal audience.

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What it does strike me as is a good story.

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PBS of course is on, so to speak, the
front lines of many of the cultural

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political controversies these days.

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Uh, you're all too familiar with that.

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Are you concerned with the way in which
certain individuals in the United States

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these days seem to want to eliminate eight
diverse voices in media, especially on the

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television front, P-B-S-N-P-R and so on?

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Yeah.

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And you know, the, the Atlantic
article you're sharing, I have a

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lot of problems with that article.

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I did not find it really, uh, accurate

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or, and this was, uh, uh, an article
from April of last year about

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PBS pulling a film for political
reasons and then changing its mind.

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I know you were referenced in the piece

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right then that, I mean,
just the headline is untrue.

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Uh, the film was always set to
air and was never pulled from PBS.

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What film was it?

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Erika?

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Uh, break the Game

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and,

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but more broadly, I mean, leaving
aside that particular story, um mm-hmm.

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What, what is the, the current
state of the game when it comes to.

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Public broadcasting PBS and, and,
and the ability or the inability to

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put on different kinds of content.

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I mean, funding of

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course

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is essential too.

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Yeah.

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And one, one of the things that I
think is that we ask PBS to be too

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many things, to too many people.

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And I feel that we need more options,
particularly in documentary film, to show

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films and conversations that may not be.

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Or particularly oriented toward PBS, but
you know, should be publicly available.

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And that's some of the work that I'm
hoping that we can do moving forward is

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to, you know, to make sure that there
are other spaces for films to show.

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We've developed a great reliance
on PBS for independent documentary,

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especially as other, uh, options
have, you know, shrunk over.

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The past few years, but I also
don't believe that it is up to PBS

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to carry the weight of, you know,
all of the indie film industry.

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And we also have to explore options
where we can get films out to

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audiences, uh, in other ways.

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One of the things that I'm looking
at doing is using YouTube as a way

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to get some of the films that maybe
we don't have the bandwidth for on

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PBS out to, uh, a general audience.

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Erika, we have a number of independent
filmmakers or aspiring independent

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filmmakers in our audience,
both listening and watching.

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Are there real viable business models?

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For independent filmmakers these
days, what advice would you give?

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How do you actually make
money in this business?

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Uh, that's no pun intended,
the million dollar question.

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Uh, I do think that you can
make money in this business.

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This is not a business to go into though,
if you're looking to make a lot of money.

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I mean, documentary film is often a
labor of love, and I think people can,

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you know, support themselves, but it is
not the type of filmmaking where you're

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00:15:27,390 --> 00:15:30,390
going to get, you know, filthy rich.

225
00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:35,490
Uh, part of it is, I think,
being realistic about.

226
00:15:35,939 --> 00:15:38,040
What audiences are
looking for at the time.

227
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,130
One of the things that we ask
people is, why this story?

228
00:15:41,130 --> 00:15:43,170
Why are you telling it and why now?

229
00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:47,970
And having something that will
really bring to the audience

230
00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:49,140
something that they're craving.

231
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,270
And I think there are filmmakers who have
passion projects or who have pet projects.

232
00:15:54,660 --> 00:15:58,199
The projects may be good projects,
but they aren't necessarily going

233
00:15:58,199 --> 00:16:00,120
to resonate with a wide audience.

234
00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:03,270
I still believe those films should be
made, but I think people have to be

235
00:16:03,270 --> 00:16:07,080
realistic about what they're going to
get out of that filmmaking experience,

236
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:13,290
which may not be a big sale and it may
not be wide distribution, but I don't

237
00:16:13,290 --> 00:16:15,300
think every film should have that.

238
00:16:16,329 --> 00:16:18,480
Erika, you mentioned YouTube earlier.

239
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,330
I know you're doing some work with
them and, and, and, and a number

240
00:16:21,330 --> 00:16:24,360
of your, uh, your enterprises.

241
00:16:24,449 --> 00:16:26,970
Uh, YouTube is a very divisive company.

242
00:16:26,970 --> 00:16:33,270
Some people see it as a great opportunity
for independent filmmakers and alternative

243
00:16:33,270 --> 00:16:35,640
to television and traditional movies.

244
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,990
On the other hand, some people see it
as simply an opportunity for Google too.

245
00:16:40,875 --> 00:16:41,650
Make more money.

246
00:16:41,655 --> 00:16:41,805
Money.

247
00:16:41,805 --> 00:16:46,485
What's your take on, on YouTube and some
of these other new digital platforms?

248
00:16:47,145 --> 00:16:50,025
Well, first of all, I agree
with both of those statements.

249
00:16:50,355 --> 00:16:53,985
I think it's an opportunity to get
films out there and it's an opportunity

250
00:16:53,985 --> 00:16:56,505
to make, you know, Google more money.

251
00:16:57,255 --> 00:17:02,760
Um, one of the things that you
know I've said is it may not be Mr.

252
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,055
Wright YouTube, but it is Mr. Wright.

253
00:17:05,055 --> 00:17:05,504
Now.

254
00:17:05,835 --> 00:17:09,555
It is one of the few forms
I think that we have where.

255
00:17:10,635 --> 00:17:15,915
You can get film out there democratically
and have the tools that you need to

256
00:17:15,915 --> 00:17:22,305
put it out safely, but is that going to
be the, you know, the end of the line?

257
00:17:22,305 --> 00:17:23,444
I don't think so.

258
00:17:23,444 --> 00:17:28,335
I mean, there are lots of different
film platforms that are being identified

259
00:17:28,335 --> 00:17:32,865
and hopefully some of those, you
know, will come to fruition sometimes.

260
00:17:33,405 --> 00:17:37,814
Soon some, I, I feel like we're in
the wild, wild west of how do we

261
00:17:37,814 --> 00:17:41,564
distribute films through streaming
and you know, there are a lot

262
00:17:41,564 --> 00:17:42,825
of people doing a lot of things.

263
00:17:42,825 --> 00:17:44,925
PBS is, you know, making some moves.

264
00:17:44,925 --> 00:17:48,615
There are probably four or five different
independent platforms out there.

265
00:17:49,064 --> 00:17:52,995
The question is just, you know,
which platform will come through.

266
00:17:52,995 --> 00:17:55,395
And also what the idea is, you
know, some people are looking

267
00:17:55,395 --> 00:17:56,895
for subscription services.

268
00:17:57,250 --> 00:18:01,990
My personal mission is to make sure that
we can provide public access to films,

269
00:18:01,990 --> 00:18:06,100
and one of the most important audiences
for me is the incarcerated audience.

270
00:18:07,030 --> 00:18:11,920
Uh, we did work with the San Quentin
Film Festival and going to the San

271
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,040
Quentin Film Festival is one of
the best experiences that I've had

272
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,815
at, as someone who's involved in
documentary, I mean, going there.

273
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,370
Dealing with a lot of the people
who are incarcerated there.

274
00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:29,580
I met people of every age, ethnicity,
race, level of education, and you

275
00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:32,040
know, there were people there who
hadn't graduated from high school,

276
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,690
people who had master's degrees.

277
00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:39,900
They could all break down their
different episodes of POV and independent

278
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:42,060
lens and programs that were on.

279
00:18:43,995 --> 00:18:47,055
You know, on the PBS network, because
that's some of the only programming

280
00:18:47,055 --> 00:18:53,445
that they get, and they all loved it or
hated it, but they all felt something

281
00:18:53,445 --> 00:18:56,955
about it and wanted desperately to
discuss it and what they thought.

282
00:18:57,315 --> 00:19:01,065
And that just showed me how powerful
a, the programming is, and B, this

283
00:19:01,065 --> 00:19:04,035
idea that it's all high brower
only for certain type of people.

284
00:19:04,035 --> 00:19:04,725
It's just not true.

285
00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:09,510
What's your take on the debate
about whether or not documentaries

286
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:14,129
should actually be watched in
movie houses versus on television

287
00:19:14,129 --> 00:19:16,320
or indeed on personal devices?

288
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,790
Do you think that the best of
the work that you produce, um,

289
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:22,889
should be seen in movie theaters?

290
00:19:24,740 --> 00:19:27,105
Uh, you know, it depends.

291
00:19:27,105 --> 00:19:32,475
I mean, I think some of it should be seen
in movie theaters and I think you get a

292
00:19:32,475 --> 00:19:38,235
better viewing experience, but it's more
important to me that it be seen and it's.

293
00:19:38,804 --> 00:19:44,054
Just as important to me that it be used,
you know, whether it sparks a conversation

294
00:19:44,145 --> 00:19:48,794
for someone with their child about, you
know, what's going on in the environment,

295
00:19:49,274 --> 00:19:53,475
or someone sees something about, you
know, school choice and decides that they

296
00:19:53,475 --> 00:19:56,865
wanna figure out what's going on in their
community and maybe get involved with it.

297
00:19:57,195 --> 00:20:00,645
I just, you know, it should
make you wanna do something.

298
00:20:01,395 --> 00:20:02,445
And so.

299
00:20:03,645 --> 00:20:08,415
In my mind, it is more important that
people see it and use it than it is

300
00:20:08,415 --> 00:20:10,365
that they see it at any particular form.

301
00:20:10,365 --> 00:20:11,685
But yes, absolutely.

302
00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:15,195
I think on the big screen there
is a difference, but then I'm

303
00:20:15,195 --> 00:20:16,695
programming for the small screen.

304
00:20:16,695 --> 00:20:18,855
So, you know, obviously
I see value in that

305
00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:24,075
as an independent or as a champion
of independent filmmaking.

306
00:20:24,075 --> 00:20:25,845
As someone who really focuses on.

307
00:20:27,044 --> 00:20:28,695
Diverse points of view.

308
00:20:28,754 --> 00:20:33,675
Do you have any strong feelings,
Erika, on this huge debate now over

309
00:20:33,735 --> 00:20:39,074
the future of Time Warner and the
struggle between Netflix and Paramount?

310
00:20:39,074 --> 00:20:40,094
Are you concerned?

311
00:20:40,094 --> 00:20:42,524
Will it impact on independent filmmaking?

312
00:20:43,334 --> 00:20:45,314
I absolutely think it will.

313
00:20:45,465 --> 00:20:48,675
I mean, just, I'm not a fan of Monopoly.

314
00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:49,770
Anyhow.

315
00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:53,280
I think when there isn't healthy
competition and there isn't room

316
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:59,880
for sort of competing ideas and ways
of doing things that you lose out.

317
00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:06,870
And I feel that the sort of compression
of this industry is going to mean, uh,

318
00:21:09,030 --> 00:21:10,965
dearth of room for.

319
00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:16,560
Creativity for different ideas and
for the kind of filmmaking that

320
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:17,850
I think is the most important.

321
00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:21,840
But does it really make any difference
whether Time Warner is acquired in that

322
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,490
sense by Paramount or Netflix when it have
the same impact, more of a consolidation?

323
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:27,840
Uh, yeah.

324
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,620
I mean, I'm against the
consolidation more so than it is,

325
00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:34,050
whether it's Paramount or Netflix.

326
00:21:34,050 --> 00:21:37,470
I'm just, you know, I'm just concerned
more about the co consolidation.

327
00:21:38,985 --> 00:21:43,845
Are there examples of independent
platforms that really excite you?

328
00:21:43,845 --> 00:21:46,455
Uh, Mobie seems a very interesting one.

329
00:21:46,455 --> 00:21:48,075
A lot of my friends are on that.

330
00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:55,020
S one, uh, then there's Jolt, avid.

331
00:21:56,100 --> 00:22:00,600
Uh, those are the ones that you know,
I've been looking at most recently.

332
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,430
But I, I feel like there are a number
of different platforms out there.

333
00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:13,080
But one of the things that I also think
is that this whole algorithm based

334
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,690
business is a little difficult because.

335
00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,470
One of the things that's most
important to me is which platform.

336
00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:23,310
We'll figure out how to let people
discover things as opposed to just

337
00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:24,840
telling them what they should look for.

338
00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:28,380
One of the things that I worry about
is the lack of ability to discover,

339
00:22:29,580 --> 00:22:35,310
uh, and you know, it happens now, you
know, when you go into, you know, your

340
00:22:35,310 --> 00:22:38,760
Netflix account, it's going to suggest
to you what it thinks you want to see,

341
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,380
but it doesn't give you the ability to.

342
00:22:41,489 --> 00:22:45,719
You know, think beyond that or
you know, to sort of stretch

343
00:22:45,719 --> 00:22:47,250
ideas of what you might wanna see.

344
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:57,090
And that's where I have the most, uh,
discomfort with those platforms is

345
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:59,639
really the algorithm based business.

346
00:23:00,719 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaking of algorithms and discomfort,
one of the controversies later

347
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,929
today on the Super Bowl will be.

348
00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:13,560
The Anthropic ad, which has already
managed to anger Sam Altman and open

349
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,490
AI and Civil War amongst AI companies.

350
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:23,070
As a great debate about the impact of
AI on film, there are some who believe

351
00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:27,690
that AI can democratize filmmaking
and enable everyone to make it.

352
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,410
Others see it as just
another cultural catastrophe.

353
00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:36,545
What's your feeling on ai, particularly
while you're wearing your, your POV?

354
00:23:36,855 --> 00:23:44,445
Ka will it, will it enhance or limit
diversity in demo documentary filmmaking?

355
00:23:45,135 --> 00:23:49,995
I think ultimately it will end up
enhancing it, but we've got a long

356
00:23:49,995 --> 00:23:52,665
way to go before this tool does that.

357
00:23:52,665 --> 00:23:57,015
Right now I think it is more
destructive than it is helpful.

358
00:23:57,495 --> 00:23:59,205
I think it creates.

359
00:24:00,074 --> 00:24:01,965
False ideas, false narratives.

360
00:24:01,965 --> 00:24:07,544
But I also know that probably 10, 15
years from now, it'll be an entirely

361
00:24:07,544 --> 00:24:09,135
different thing than it is right now.

362
00:24:09,195 --> 00:24:13,935
And not being a technologist, I, I don't
wanna say that X is gonna happen or y is

363
00:24:13,935 --> 00:24:19,995
gonna happen, but I do believe that most
things that we look at in their infancy.

364
00:24:21,165 --> 00:24:23,534
Uh, are kind of clunky.

365
00:24:23,534 --> 00:24:27,105
And it's funny because AI's changing
so fast that I don't think we

366
00:24:27,105 --> 00:24:29,625
wanna think about it as clunky,
but that's what it is right now.

367
00:24:29,685 --> 00:24:30,284
It's clunky.

368
00:24:30,825 --> 00:24:34,274
And the question is, what form
will it take in the future?

369
00:24:35,115 --> 00:24:40,095
And I feel that we're raising the
right alarm bells about how it's

370
00:24:40,095 --> 00:24:41,805
used and how it should be used.

371
00:24:41,985 --> 00:24:43,365
And what I'm hoping is that.

372
00:24:44,685 --> 00:24:47,715
You know, again, 10 years from
now, the way we look at AI will

373
00:24:47,715 --> 00:24:50,415
be entirely different than the
AI that we're looking at today.

374
00:24:51,495 --> 00:24:54,105
But are you confident that
humans can compete with smart

375
00:24:54,105 --> 00:24:55,905
machines to make documentaries?

376
00:24:57,025 --> 00:24:57,145
I

377
00:24:57,145 --> 00:25:00,840
think in the long run, I mean, you
talk about 10 years, I mean, in

378
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,340
Silicon Valley's 10 years is like
10 centuries, and in 10 years we'll

379
00:25:05,340 --> 00:25:07,920
have remarkably more powerful tools.

380
00:25:08,005 --> 00:25:12,270
It, it could, you conceive of a
world in which you can just program a

381
00:25:12,270 --> 00:25:15,420
documentary in, in 30 seconds or a minute,

382
00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:19,440
I think you will be able to
program something that you

383
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,640
could call a documentary.

384
00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:24,870
I don't think it will probably have
the value of a documentary that's

385
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:28,890
been created by people that takes into
account the nuances and the creativity

386
00:25:28,890 --> 00:25:30,450
that make documentaries great.

387
00:25:30,930 --> 00:25:35,160
You might be able to imitate somebody,
or you might be able to create something

388
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,950
that you know has content that you
want or need, but I think that human

389
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:44,520
factor is never going to be replicated.

390
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,570
It can be dim imitated, but
it's not gonna be replicated.

391
00:25:49,725 --> 00:25:55,185
In your work at POV and going into
American prisons and making films

392
00:25:55,185 --> 00:25:59,565
and a accessing that community,
what's the role of technology?

393
00:25:59,565 --> 00:26:04,275
Certainly people, uh, incarcerated
have less access to technology.

394
00:26:04,275 --> 00:26:05,025
Does that concern you?

395
00:26:06,670 --> 00:26:07,450
It does.

396
00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:12,220
And, uh, I, but I also think we're too
reliant on technology in a lot of ways.

397
00:26:12,580 --> 00:26:16,630
And one of the things that I do like
about documentary film is even though

398
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,490
we use technology to shoot and to
edit it, some of the best documentary

399
00:26:21,490 --> 00:26:25,780
films, you know, the quality of
documentary films has not improved

400
00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:29,955
over the past 20 or 30 years because
technology has become more advanced.

401
00:26:31,005 --> 00:26:34,065
It's really been the creativity
of the minds that make it.

402
00:26:34,065 --> 00:26:38,865
And you look at a film 30 years ago
and it has just as much resonance

403
00:26:38,865 --> 00:26:43,545
and you know, is just as high
quality as a film created today.

404
00:26:43,545 --> 00:26:49,695
So I don't see that in advancement
in terms of making filmmaking better.

405
00:26:49,815 --> 00:26:52,965
It may make it easier, but I
don't think it's making it better.

406
00:26:53,565 --> 00:26:57,105
And uh, that's one of the things
that sort of heartens me, like

407
00:26:57,105 --> 00:26:59,295
when you go back to ai, I mean.

408
00:26:59,685 --> 00:27:03,735
You take a film like Salesman, the
Maisels Brothers film salesman from

409
00:27:03,735 --> 00:27:11,175
1968, that film is just as great today
as it was, you know, almost 60 years ago.

410
00:27:11,805 --> 00:27:17,055
And I think that is part of what is
the beauty of documentary is that

411
00:27:17,055 --> 00:27:21,465
it's, it's the eye that's seeing it
that really creates the film, not

412
00:27:21,465 --> 00:27:23,145
just the tools or the technology.

413
00:27:23,790 --> 00:27:25,710
And of course, the documentary greats.

414
00:27:25,710 --> 00:27:29,100
People like Frederick Wiseman
seem even greater in some ways

415
00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:30,690
today than they were at the time.

416
00:27:30,690 --> 00:27:36,360
You mentioned that Hoop Dreams woke
you up to the potential of film, uh,

417
00:27:36,390 --> 00:27:39,720
documentary filmmaking we're coming
up of course, after the Super Bowl

418
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,180
on the Oscars a few days after.

419
00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:46,590
The Super Bowl is always the Oscars,
the movie industry Super Bowl.

420
00:27:46,650 --> 00:27:51,330
Are there documentary
films made this year that.

421
00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:54,990
I particularly excited you that
are in the running and the Oscars.

422
00:27:54,990 --> 00:27:58,260
I mean, of course the Oscars
mostly focuses on fictional films,

423
00:27:58,260 --> 00:27:59,910
but documentaries play a role.

424
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:01,140
Oh, yeah.

425
00:28:01,140 --> 00:28:06,000
No, I mean there's definitely, uh, there
are, uh, definitely, you know, Oscar

426
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,460
nominated documentary films this year.

427
00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:15,540
And, uh, if you ask me, uh,
my guess is that the winner is

428
00:28:15,540 --> 00:28:16,800
going to be the perfect neighbor,

429
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:19,200
the

430
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:19,860
perfect.

431
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:21,660
Tell me more about that film.

432
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:30,660
Uh, the Perfect Neighbor is, uh, filmed
by Gita Gbe, about a killing of, uh,

433
00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:38,070
a woman by her neighbor in
Florida, and it's told completely

434
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:39,150
through body cam footage.

435
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,575
And everyone should watch it.

436
00:28:43,575 --> 00:28:44,835
Is it easy to access?

437
00:28:44,835 --> 00:28:45,885
I mean, one of the problems with

438
00:28:45,885 --> 00:28:47,085
some of these, it's on Netflix.

439
00:28:47,325 --> 00:28:52,785
It's on Netflix, but I'll tell you, the
Sleeper, uh, is a film called Cutting

440
00:28:52,785 --> 00:28:58,695
Through Rocks, and that is a film
by Sarah Khaki and Mohammad Drea ee.

441
00:28:59,775 --> 00:29:05,385
And that is about a woman in
Iran who is, uh, an elected

442
00:29:05,385 --> 00:29:08,235
official and a motorcycle rider.

443
00:29:08,955 --> 00:29:09,740
That film.

444
00:29:09,745 --> 00:29:14,115
Film is, I think, the sleeper of
the season, and that's an, that one

445
00:29:14,115 --> 00:29:19,215
is being independently distributed,
so that's gonna be a little harder

446
00:29:19,215 --> 00:29:24,075
to see right now, but it is, it's
the sleeper film in my, in my mind.

447
00:29:25,065 --> 00:29:30,220
Well, let's end, uh, Erika with something
about this project you're doing with

448
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,420
Ken Burns emancipation to Exodus.

449
00:29:32,475 --> 00:29:36,135
I know it's, it's coming
out what, in 2027?

450
00:29:36,675 --> 00:29:37,185
Yes.

451
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:37,320
Um,

452
00:29:38,610 --> 00:29:43,170
tell me a little bit more about
this, um, what it's going to cover

453
00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:44,820
and where we'll be able to watch it.

454
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:45,750
Sure.

455
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:52,320
Well, it will, it will be on PBS, so, uh,
you can in two years, check your local,

456
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,930
well, in a year and a half check your
local PBS station, but it is about, again.

457
00:29:58,455 --> 00:30:03,795
It starts with the end of the Civil War
and looking at, you know, the promise

458
00:30:03,795 --> 00:30:09,165
and the ability of what's going to
be next in for black people in the

459
00:30:09,165 --> 00:30:13,365
Southern United States, and just how
that came about, but also what we do.

460
00:30:14,195 --> 00:30:19,355
Is we look at how things progressed
over that period, some of the places

461
00:30:19,355 --> 00:30:24,575
where there were different experiments
and how they worked and how really,

462
00:30:24,755 --> 00:30:29,915
one of the things that I love about it
is that there was a lot of dignity and

463
00:30:29,915 --> 00:30:36,185
agency for black people during this time
that was systematically dismantled and.

464
00:30:36,810 --> 00:30:40,350
You know, we really wanna highlight a
lot of that dignity and agency and let

465
00:30:40,350 --> 00:30:43,080
people see, you know, what was going on.

466
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,940
And, and you know, like for instance,
there was this idea that after the Civil

467
00:30:47,940 --> 00:30:51,570
War that you know, a lot of black people
were just going to want to go out and

468
00:30:51,570 --> 00:30:54,180
get white people and be angry at them.

469
00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:57,300
Most people, the biggest
thing that happened was they

470
00:30:57,300 --> 00:30:58,650
tried to find their families.

471
00:30:58,650 --> 00:31:01,800
They tried to find their children's,
their children, and their brothers

472
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,750
and their sisters and their.

473
00:31:04,110 --> 00:31:08,669
Spouses who were sold away and they
tried to start a life for themselves.

474
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:15,990
And you know, I wanna, I wanna show that
dignity and I wanna show that agency.

475
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:21,179
And I also wanna show how it was
completely dismantled through

476
00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:26,760
cruelty and through aggression,
and perhaps even through jealousy.

477
00:31:27,780 --> 00:31:29,520
And finally, what lessons.

478
00:31:30,855 --> 00:31:36,885
Will your series with Burns, the
emancipation to exes exodus, what lessons

479
00:31:36,885 --> 00:31:41,595
will it offer America of the late 2020s?

480
00:31:42,495 --> 00:31:47,235
I think one of the things that it'll
teach us is, first of all, if you try

481
00:31:47,235 --> 00:31:50,205
and keep anyone down, you pull yourself.

482
00:31:51,525 --> 00:31:57,795
That as a nation, and as you know, just
as people, when we try and make someone

483
00:31:57,795 --> 00:32:00,015
else lesser, we make ourselves lesser.

484
00:32:00,735 --> 00:32:04,725
And also that, you know,
you can't keep people down.

485
00:32:05,595 --> 00:32:06,585
They will find a way.

486
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:17,130
Well, Erika Dilday, the executive producer
of POV, uh, upcoming co. Uh, what are you?

487
00:32:17,130 --> 00:32:17,850
The co-director,

488
00:32:17,855 --> 00:32:18,445
co-director

489
00:32:18,735 --> 00:32:22,800
Codirector of, uh, the Ken Burns
series, Emancipation to Exodus.

490
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:26,940
I'm not sure I should be wishing New
England any luck in the Super Bowl?

491
00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:30,330
As I said, I'm indifferent,
but I hope you will end the

492
00:32:30,330 --> 00:32:32,040
day happier than you began it.

493
00:32:32,655 --> 00:32:33,155
Oh, I will.

494
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:37,890
I'll, and we'll definitely, uh, I'd love
to get you back on the show next year,

495
00:32:37,890 --> 00:32:45,000
20, uh, 2027 to talk more about, uh, this
new, uh, series, Emancipation to Exodus.

496
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:45,870
Thank you so much.

497
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:46,920
Absolutely.

498
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,400
Thank you.