Books Are Dying (Again): Bethanne Patrick on the Enshittification of the Book Biz

00:00:33 Andrew Keen Hello, everybody. A couple of weeks ago, there was something called an absolute bloodbath at The Washington Post—laid off hundreds of workers, the death in some ways of The Washington Post, at least according to some people. And indeed, it represents the gutting of its book coverage. The Washington Post closed its book page, according to Becca Rothfeld, who's been on the show before; she's the author of an interesting critical book, All Things Are Too Small. She had a piece in the New Yorker called "The Death of Book World," and I thought it'd be a good opportunity to talk to Keen on America's resident book expert, Bethanne Patrick, who's the book critic of the LA Times—fortunately not the Washington Post—for her response. Bethanne, I know you've looked at Rothfeld's piece. How miserable is this news from a book point of view?
00:01:41 Bethanne Patrick The news is very sad. I wrote for The Washington Post Book World for a number of years, and I counted its fiction books editor and newsletter editor Ron Charles among my dear friends. I still count Ron among my dear friends. He's still with us; he's just no longer at The Washington Post, which is a big shame. But a lot of other people, like the editor of Book World, John Williams, is gone. Becca Rothfeld herself is gone, along with a number of other really fantastic critical writers' minds. It is a big blow for the literary world, the publishing world, the reading world, and no one is happy about it—except maybe someone who takes care of the bottom line somewhere.
00:02:57 Andrew Keen Maybe Jeff Bezos, though? I wonder whether he...
00:03:00 Bethanne Patrick Maybe his wife's plastic surgeon. I don't know.
00:03:05 Andrew Keen Oh, man. Wow. If you're Jeff Bezos' new wife's plastic surgeon out there, it's good news for you. Rothfeld made the argument that we need generalized criticisms. There's still a lot of specialized magazines, there's Substack, and shows like this. But the argument was that the generalized review is really important. Do you agree?
00:03:35 Bethanne Patrick I do agree. However, I don't know if she and I are even speaking to a general public anymore. We used to know that newspapers and certain magazines—Time, Newsweek, Life—had a general public looking for guidance about what to read and watch. Now, we have splintered the public not just into interest groups, but into generational interest groups. We tell people, "Be interested in whatever you're interested in; you don't have to care about what we care about anymore." It’s really difficult. We have so much pulling at our attention—TV, movies, the news—it’s just all so much. It seems like a model that doesn't work for the way we read now.
00:05:55 Andrew Keen And I know you've been following the collapse of mass-market paperbacks. I grew up with paperbacks like Valley of the Dolls and Jaws. How important is this? Lots of articles lately about the end of cheap books.
00:06:23 Bethanne Patrick I think there's always a market for cheap books. But do they have to be a certain trim size that fits in a pocket when people don't carry anything in their pockets anymore except their phone? The nostalgia factor is really high, but people forget that mass-market paperbacks aren't necessarily the best vehicle for prose. They are made of very cheap pulp. They yellow, they smell, they fall apart. If you are 16 or 20 years old now, what gets you into reading might be an e-galley or an audiobook on Libby. They might have been easy to stuff in a back pocket, but they aren't necessarily the best.
00:08:26 Andrew Keen So from a consumer point of view, you may be right. But from a writer's point of view, is the end of mass-market paperbacks good or bad? I assume it's not great news.
00:08:58 Bethanne Patrick Listen, Colleen Hoover's doing just fine without mass-market paperbacks, thank you very much. And believe me, I'm not a big Colleen Hoover reader, but she is the self-published author of It Starts with Us and It Ends with Us. They perhaps aren't the best-written fiction, but they've really grabbed women of all ages because they bring out emotions. Hoover has sales up the yin-yang.
00:09:51 Andrew Keen She’s probably the equivalent now of a Jacqueline Susann book. Valley of the Dolls made men happy; Colleen Hoover makes women happy. But before we get to audiobooks, what does this mean for The New York Times? It's so successful and profitable. Is it good to have one publication so dominant?
00:10:55 Bethanne Patrick No, it isn't. It's wonderful that it exists, but more book reviews is better for the publishing industry. No one wants to be able to say, "The New York Times didn't pick up your book, so there won't be a review at all." It used to be that you had the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the Chicago Tribune, or the San Francisco Chronicle. Oh, and the Washington Post.
00:11:48 Andrew Keen Don't forget your own paper, the LA Times.
00:11:50 Bethanne Patrick Yes. Not even a book review this week, actually a little essay about songs based on novels. But that's okay.
00:12:03 Andrew Keen With the wonderful title, "The Other Kate Bush Banger That Deserves a Comeback Right Now."
00:12:08 Bethanne Patrick Thank you! And it is interesting to see how much attention a book like Wuthering Heights is getting, which is why I was writing that piece.
00:12:23 Andrew Keen And I'm going to see the movie in a couple of days. It seems to be getting surprisingly good reviews.
00:12:39 Bethanne Patrick Even if the New York Times called it florid and overstuffed, it is getting other excellent reviews. It truly is becoming a desert right now for book publicists.
00:13:15 Andrew Keen That must be why book publicists are desperate to get their authors on Keen on America.
00:13:21 Bethanne Patrick That's right! And many are flocking to Substack.
00:13:29 Andrew Keen We're all flocking to Substack. Although for general interest readers, I'm not sure it's so good because you have to be a specialist to be there, whereas the Post or the Times cater to a general interest.
00:13:52 Bethanne Patrick People are in niches on Substack. But look, people have left Substack because of its leadership and policies. That happens with everything. Another company, Spotify, has run ads for ISIS recruitment. It's getting harder and harder to stick to being an ethical consumer. We sit here bemoaning the loss of Book World, and yet many of us dislike Jeff Bezos's practices but continue to use Amazon.
00:14:54 Andrew Keen And what about his wife's plastic surgeon?
00:14:57 Bethanne Patrick All I know is it's extensive. It’s probably a whole wing. It's really tough to say, "I feel safe here." I don't know if we were right to feel safe in the past.
00:15:38 Andrew Keen I don't care for that word "safe." But your own publication, the LA Times, has been in the news. How are things there?
00:15:49 Bethanne Patrick I am full-time freelance, so I don't know that much. What I do know is my editor, Sophia Kirchner, is terrific. Coverage is fine, but it has changed. When I started seven years ago, it was any book that was important. Now, there is a real imperative to find California or LA stories. It’s just a change.
00:17:02 Andrew Keen It’s the fragmentation. Let’s get to some better news—Spotify. They are soon going to offer physical books through a deal with Bookshop.org. I think it’s encouraging, especially given the deficiencies in Amazon. Tell us about this deal.
00:18:27 Bethanne Patrick It's very interesting. Spotify isn't opening a bookstore; they are an affiliate. Bookshop.org is an important company where every purchase benefits independent bookstores. Now, if you are listening to a book or hearing about one on a podcast, you can click a link and get a physical copy. It's a convenience factor. It's saying, "Here's your link; buy Bethanne Patrick’s memoir, Life B."
00:20:50 Andrew Keen Absolutely. I hope everyone buys it. And you can get it through your Linktree. What about audiobooks? Are you one of these literary people who don't consider audiobooks real reading?
00:21:50 Bethanne Patrick I believe in ebooks, audiobooks, graphic novels—it's hard enough to get people to read! Science has found audiobooks reach the same part of the brain as reading paper. When my husband discovered audiobooks five or six years ago, it completely changed his reading life. He started reading longer books and many more women novelists. I’m pretty open-minded when it comes to reading.
00:23:59 Andrew Keen Always open-minded. ElevenLabs, the AI company, is doubling down on audiobooks. Should we be wary of AI-produced audiobooks?
00:24:33 Bethanne Patrick I am struggling with this. I certainly believe we shouldn't be using AI to write books. One of the joys of reading is two consciousnesses meeting in the ether. But AI bots producing audiobooks is interesting.
00:26:02 Andrew Keen It's an expensive business. I've been in the studio for my books and it takes a lot of resources.
00:26:11 Bethanne Patrick I narrated my own memoir, Life B, and it was a wonderful experience. AI-generated voices are very good, but it's a matter of how much artifice we want. Are people going to want the author reading, a great actor, or just the actor's voice being used with no acting? ElevenLabs has all these tiers now.
00:28:33 Andrew Keen I wonder whether this speaks to "enshittification." We're going to have all these AI-produced audiobooks, a small high end of famous actors, and very little in between.
00:29:27 Bethanne Patrick The New York Times is prospering because of its games and cooking app. We still have blockbusters like James Patterson or Reese Witherspoon making publishers lots of money. But when we look at companies valued at $11 billion, the general public has to do more of its own work to consider what quality they want. Do you want Kraft Macaroni and Cheese or a homemade recipe?
00:31:26 Andrew Keen Finally, you still have 185,000 followers on X (Twitter). What is the role of social media now?
00:32:25 Bethanne Patrick I spent fifteen years of my life on social media. I don't regret it; it afforded me the opportunity to meet colleagues like you. But I don't know what the role is now. TikTok is not for me, and BlueSky is a place where I find it difficult to get real conversations going.
00:33:45 Andrew Keen It seems intellectually like an intellectual ghetto.
00:33:58 Bethanne Patrick Yeah. One thing I know for sure is Ron Charles has started his own Substack. He will continue as a critic.
00:34:57 Andrew Keen Finally, what are you reading at the moment? Any good?
00:35:12 Bethanne Patrick Do not read Jaws! I am reading a delightful book called The Adjunct by Maria Adelmann. It’s about an English lit adjunct in Baltimore whose former mentor writes a bestselling novel that might be about her. It’s very funny and sharp. I teach as an adjunct, and her observations are really, really good.
00:36:26 Andrew Keen Well, there you have it. The Washington Post has gutted its book business, but Spotify is doing an interesting deal. Bethanne Patrick, book critic of the LA Times, thank you so much.
00:36:51 Bethanne Patrick You're welcome! Bye, Andrew.