Between Pride and Shame: Beverly Gage Gets in her Subaru & drives Across 250 Years of American History

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It's Friday, 04/10/2026. When we think of distinguished American historians, we think of them working in libraries, pouring over documents, spending years, concocting major pieces of work like, the Pulitzer prize winning book, G-Man, J. Edgar Hoover and the Making of the American Century, a wonderful book about one of the most curious and controversial twentieth century Americans, J. Edgar Hoover. It's by my guest today, Beverly Gage, but that came out a few years ago. And as it happens, the subject of Beverly Gage's new book, it came out this week, isn't J. Edgar Hoover. She didn't spend a lot of time in libraries for this book. She got in her Subaru and drove around America. The new book is called This Land is Your Land, a road trip through US history by one of America's most distinguished historians. Beverly, congratulations on the book.

00:01:31 Beverly Gage: Thanks so much.

00:01:32 Andrew Keen: So I have to ask the dumb question, Beverly. Why'd you get out the library and get in into your Subaru and get go on the road? Why not write your next I mean, as I said, G-Man was enormously acclaimed, a magnificent book. I think it's seven or 800 pages. It won the Pulitzer Prize. Why not write another major biography of an American political figure?

00:01:57 Beverly Gage: Well, that actually is my plan. So having finished this book, This Land is Your Land, I'm getting started on a biography of Ronald Reagan. But I needed a little break in between, and I have always loved doing this kind of historical travel. And I knew that the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the declaration of independence was coming up. So I wanted to get out of the office. I wanted to see my country, and I wanted to learn some new history. So I thought I'd do that in between.

00:02:30 Andrew Keen: Did you treat it as seriously as, as the Hoover book or the Reagan book you're writing now? Or was it a kind of, as you perhaps hinted at, a kind of relief and opportunity to get out of the office?

00:02:45 Beverly Gage: It was a little bit of each, I would say. So it is a serious history book. It covers 250 years of American history, and it's a little bit like taking a US History survey class that you might have in college. So it covers all of that ground and brings in a lot of recent scholarship, but it tries to do it in a way that is fun and engaging, that visits the dark parts, but also gives a way to be a little bit celebratory this year if you can find things you wanna celebrate.

00:03:20 Andrew Keen: You can't find anything to celebrate in 2026 in America, Beverly?

00:03:24 Beverly Gage: Well, part of the issue actually was that as I started talking to people about 2026, I encountered a lot of Americans who said, oh, celebrate the country. I don't want anything to do with that. And then I encountered other people who said, yes, this is the moment. Only say the good stuff. And I wanted to challenge myself to to find a way to kind of be in the tension between those two things, really acknowledging the past and still finding a way to love the country that I'm in.

00:03:56 Andrew Keen: I found the book, quite a ride on lots of fronts. And perhaps the thing I was most struck by was the autobiographical elements. You introduced yourself as a little girl growing up in the middle of America. Tell us about that little girl who eventually grew into Beverly Gage. I mean, you were always Beverly Gage, of course, but,

00:04:18 Beverly Gage: I was. I was. But, you know, we grow and change and learn. So I grew up outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and Philadelphia is a big history city, and it's particularly important for a moment like this. It's where the Declaration of Independence was signed, where the constitution was signed. It's sort of the birthplace of the American Revolution. So the first chapter of the book is both about the nation's origins and then also a little bit about my origins there outside of Philadelphia. As a kid, I was not especially interested in history, and I didn't really know how to find the history around me because I grew up in a new suburb, kind of displaced from, you know, extended family and all of that. And so that first chapter is a little bit about my own reckoning, with what it means to to be rooted in history and how people in a big mobile modern society like this, can still find the history around them.

00:05:22 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Displacement seems to define your childhood as as you note in the introduction. Your father changed his name. Is that correct?

00:05:32 Beverly Gage: Correct. Yeah. My father was, quite old when he had me. So he had been born in 1916, and he came of age in the nineteen thirties as fascism was spreading. And he came from a Jewish family, and his last name was Goldberger. And when he turned 18, he changed it to a much more anglicized name, which is Gage. And that's the name that I have now. It's funny because the the Americans mostly associate the name Gage if they associate it with anything with general Gage, who was one of the British generals who tried to crush the American revolution. So, I'm not sure I how I ended up with that name in particular, but that's now who I am.

00:06:16 Andrew Keen: Were you trying to, if not generalize, make a little bit of a point, Beverly, in introducing yourself so early in that rather displaced childhood you had? You don't seem to have been a particularly well, it didn't strike me, maybe correct me if I'm wrong, was particularly happy. It wasn't unhappy, but it wasn't a particularly happy childhood. Father changed his name, no real identity growing up in the suburbs. Was it a an attempt to give a an alternative version of Middle America, not that Philadelphia, of course, is quite

00:06:49 Beverly Gage: Right. Philadelphia is coastal. So, yeah. Suburban. Right. And I think that my experience is the experience that a lot of people have had. So lovely parents, so I don't wanna, you know, talk about some terrible childhood or anything. But, but we were not particularly rooted anywhere, except in this new suburb where I grew up. And so I think a lot of the story of The United States and of American identity is both mobility and reinvention. And so every book, every chapter in this book starts with someone in American history who sort of picked up and moved somewhere else and reinvented themselves, brought some of what they had, in the place they had been to a new place. And so there's that story of travel within my own story of being on the road.

00:07:46 Andrew Keen: Yeah. You're on the road, which, of course, is a narrative of geography. You've chosen to name your book, This Land is Your Land, of course, referencing, Woody Guthrie's famous song, which Bob Dylan, amongst others, has popularized. Geography and history are quite different subjects, aren't they, Beverly? Were you in a way historians, I won't say envious of geography, but what do they what do they do with geography?

00:08:18 Beverly Gage: Well, it's funny. I actually think historians probably don't think about geography enough. One of the things that I found by traveling around the country was not only a much deeper sense of how big and variegated and diverse the country is, but also a much better sense of kind of how the pieces fit together. And a lot of the places that I visited, I ended up really focusing on, a particular set of historical characters who might be people that I had read about, but who I didn't really understand as neighbors and people kind of rooted in a particular geography and the community. One example of that is, the Virginia presidents. And, of course, I knew that the first four of the first five American presidents were slave owners from Virginia, but actually going to visit their houses and seeing how closely they lived together in this very kind of intimate elite community was really interesting. Another example was traveling along the Erie Canal in Upstate New York. And there, that was a place in the eighteen thirties, forties, and fifties that became sort of the birth place of American women's rights movements and abolitionism and all sort of reform, Christianity, temperance, all of those movements. And they were just happening in these little towns. And, so I think you just have a very different sense of that when you are actually out there engaging not just the history, but the geography too.

00:09:56 Andrew Keen: And is that, Beverly, the irony of American history? I mean, obviously, there's such a thing as an American American geography. It's a country, physical country, which you, you write about, and you cover in the book. But this promise of mobility, of invention and reinvention, is in a way a challenge to the certainties of geography, isn't it?

00:10:19 Beverly Gage: It is. I think that's a really good way of putting it. And, you know, both, practically and then also culturally, that theme of mobility, of reinvention, of being in multiple places is really a part of the American story, actually less now, than I think at many moments in the past. And one of the things that's interesting, about our own moment is that some of those pieces of the American story or the American dream seem kind of wobbly, right now, and social mobility is one of them.

00:10:55 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And the word wobbly, I think, is a little bit of a euphemism. What surprised you? You you your book you you wear your your politics on your your sleeve. The fact that you named the book after Woody Guthrie suggested it's a progressive book. You're clearly a progressive thinker, historian, and you associate with progressive causes. But what surprised you most in this trip around America? What didn't you expect to see?

00:11:27 Beverly Gage: Well, part of the task of the book was, trying to put all sorts of different stories together. So as you say, there are stories of progressive reformers and their contributions to The United States. But there are lots of other people, too. And I think the challenge of this moment in The United States is trying to think about all these groups together. So not losing sight of the presidents even as you talk about, ordinary citizens, not losing sight of the right even as you're talking about the left. And so, that's what I was trying to do in in the book. I guess the surprising places were just places that I hadn't been before, and they were often the places that were more off the beaten path. So I went to a lot of famous places like Independence Hall and The Alamo and Mount Rushmore and Disneyland, but I also went to a lot of places that most people have never heard of, like Mound Bayou, Mississippi or Medora, North Dakota or Dearborn, Michigan. And I think in some of those small places, that's where I learned stories that I hadn't heard before.

00:12:40 Andrew Keen: And, of course, in Dearborn, Michigan, you come across a certain Henry Ford, who you

00:12:46 Beverly Gage: You come across it everywhere in Dearborn, Michigan.

00:12:49 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Well, you write about in a very interesting way, a particularly controversial and important figure in American twentieth century history. You end, I think, in Disneyland. Of course, some travelers go to Disneyland, especially European travelers, and come up with notions of sort of ontological notions of hyperreality. You have a Baudrillard, Eco, these types of writers. Do you believe in the idea of, hyperreality when it comes to making sense of America, or was reality sufficient for you in terms of making sense of this country? I mean, when one goes to a place like Disneyland, I mean, a place like Disneyland, there's only one place like Disneyland. Our our notions of reality are in in an odd way challenged, aren't they?

00:13:42 Beverly Gage: I think that's right.

00:13:43 Andrew Keen: So historians tend

00:13:43 Beverly Gage: Historians tend to be very wedded to reality and to trying to figure out the facts. But one of the things that really fascinated me about Disneyland was trying to kind of live in the space between actual history, including the history of Disneyland itself, and then these imagined worlds that, are really at the heart of Disneyland. You know, I think most people don't realize anymore that Disneyland, when it opened in 1955, really was sort of a parable about American history of Main Street USA, which is still the main street of Disney, was intended to reach back into the years of Walt Disney's own childhoods through the late nineteenth century, the era of William McKinley. Frontierland, which is still a big section of Disneyland, was intended to tell this kind of heroic story about the American past. And then Tomorrowland was this great celebration of American technology and innovation in in in the nineteen fifties, sort of at the beginning of the Cold War. So, most people don't think about this when they're at Disneyland, but since I'm a historian, I went and I thought about all of that, and then I did the silly things like, go to the Abraham Lincoln stage show.

00:15:10 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Which was a lot of fun or at least in the way you described it. I'm guessing there'll be quite a lot of Walt Disney and Disneyland in your biography of, Ronald Reagan. Who are your models as travelers for America? Of course, as a historian, you touch on Tocqueville, of course, perhaps the most famous European traveler, certainly in the nineteenth century to America, and an observer, a traveler, not just a a travel writer, but a political writer. Were there particular travel logs of America as a historian that you were trying to follow or emulate?

00:15:49 Beverly Gage: Yeah. There were. This is a great tradition in this country, both a literary tradition and a sort of vacation tradition, and so I was very aware of being just one more participant in that. So there are some historians who have done something not on this scale, not 250, but, people who have gone and and investigated on the ground particular issues in American history. So I thought about them. And then as you say, there are all these kind of great travelers, especially of the nineteenth century. So I got very interested in the Marquis de Lafayette Yes. Who had been here during the revolution very famously, and then in the eighteen twenties came back from France to tour The United States as it then existed and to comment on what he saw. And it's really, the account that his travel companion wrote of their journeys is really just a fascinating snapshot in part because he was celebratory, but he was also calling the country on things that he thought were not living up to the revolution's ideals, namely slavery, which he writes quite a lot about, and has very vivid impressions of what's happening.

00:17:08 Andrew Keen: And, of course, in your chapter or the section of your chapter on Jefferson's Monticello, you spend, not surprisingly, a considerable amount of time talking about his concubine slave, Sally Hemings. Beverly, how long did the trip take?

00:17:25 Beverly Gage: Well, I did actually each chapter as a separate trip. So there were 13 trips in all partly because I had to come back and do other things in between. But I spent about six or seven months in total on the road. That was mostly in 2023 and early twenty twenty four. And then I just sat down and more or less wrote the book from from beginning to end.

00:17:50 Andrew Keen: It sounds to me from reading the book that there was some element of trauma for you, both in terms of the loneliness. You missed your son and your boyfriend who then became your husband or is now your husband. And, also, you had some health issues and just some car issues. I keep on bringing up the Subaru. That's the star of the book. I don't have a photo of the Subaru, but you drove around America in an old Subaru, which was quite adventurous.

00:18:17 Beverly Gage: I did. So in some places, because I flew in and then drove around, I was in a rental car. But my own car is this, as it turns out, not entirely dependable Subaru, which caused me some troubles. And, yeah, I think for me, this also was a little bit of wrestling with, with middle age and with the things that come with that. You know? Could I spend all this time on my own out on the road? And, turns out the answer is yes, but it was not, a uniform experience. There were lots of ups and downs.

00:18:52 Andrew Keen: Did you ask your Subaru for permission to write about it?

00:18:56 Beverly Gage: I did, actually, very solemnly. Yes.

00:18:58 Andrew Keen: And the, and the car kept on breaking down, so you spent half your time in, repair shop.

00:19:03 Beverly Gage: That's true. There is a there's a very vivid scene at a place called Goldstein Subaru in Albany, New York, where I spent an entire day that I had planned to spend doing something else.

00:19:17 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I'm, you should complain to your your publisher is Simon and Schuster. Maybe the advance they gave you or the money I gave you for the book will get you a new car.

00:19:25 Beverly Gage: That's right. That's the plan now.

00:19:28 Andrew Keen: As it happens, your your romantic partner and and I'm just not being gossipy here because you write about him in some detail in the book. John Fabian Witt was on our show, with his new book a few months ago. He has a he's another, professor at Yale. He has a book called The Radical Front, How a Band of Visionaries and a Million Dollars Upended America Like You. I think he's politically on the left. And in our show, he suggested that sometimes we need a calamity. What was the state of America that you saw? I mean, I don't wanna put you on the line in terms of agreeing or disagreeing with with Witt, but he sometimes suggested, maybe not in the context of America more broadly, that things have gone really badly wrong. Did you find that in the America that you saw in 2023 and 2024?

00:20:22 Beverly Gage: Well, I would certainly agree with him that has often been crisis and catastrophe that has produced the opportunity for change. And you see that pattern again and again. I guess one of the funny things, is that 2025 and 2026, when the book is coming out, actually seem politically quite different in The United States than when I was doing the research, which was 2023 and '24. You know, I think one of the things that I really felt and learned and I think is true coming out of this book, is that The United States has been in lots of moments of crisis in its past. I don't think that we're in the worst moment of crisis, though there are, some singular features about our own moment for sure. But one of the things that I tried to do in the book was to tell these stories from history of, the story about The United States and the questions that Americans have always asked about whether, their country is, rising or falling, whether they're, in stasis or in crisis. And one of the opening images of the book is Ben Franklin in Philadelphia in, 1787 as the constitution is being created saying, wow. So we've made this country. Is the sun rising or setting on this country? And so from its first moment, that question was right there, and it's sort of a through line in the book.

00:21:55 Andrew Keen: Yeah. We we've done many shows on Franklin. When he was the guy who came out and waved didn't he wave his piece of paper and say, republic if we can keep it?

00:22:03 Beverly Gage: Right. Also that. Yep.

00:22:05 Andrew Keen: So you bring that historical wisdom. Another, road warrior we've had, on our show is Sarah Kendzior, a St. Louis-based writer. She has a new book out. It's called The Last American Road Trip, a memoir, in which she's particularly apocalyptic, I think, about America. I'm guessing that you're much less apocalyptic, more historical, what I won't say wiser, but certainly, more willing to to learn from history and all the the ups and downs of American history. How does do you think that twenty twenties and our current situation in April 2025, how does it compare with some of the other historical, periods that you deal with in in your chapters? Because each chapter deals it it's a chronology beginning with Washington and ending, in with Disneyland. So you you cover most of American history.

00:23:06 Beverly Gage: Yeah. So I would say, you know, 2026 has its own challenges like many other moments have. There is also a history of people declaring that the apocalypse is about to come, and, usually, it doesn't, though maybe it it it Yeah.

00:23:21 Andrew Keen: From both left and right, not just from Sarah Kendzior on the left, but many people on the right too.

00:23:27 Beverly Gage: Exactly. And so I visit some of those, ideas and places, over the course of the book. You know, I I would say that history is a process. It's not a fixed thing, and so it doesn't, give easy lessons. But, I think you can see I mean, to take one example, something that I actually think and write about quite a lot as a scholar, the question of political violence, which has been really front and center in our politics in the last couple of years. I think certainly there is cause for concern in our moment. But if you really look at, the deeper history, there are many other moments in the past, where American politics was much more violent than it is, in this moment. So I don't know if that's a comfort or if that's a warning, but, I am skeptical of a narrative that's out there that, this is the worst moment because I think it's also a a disempowering story. It's a story that tells you, you can't do anything about it. You can't make change. You can't confront it, and you won't make your way through it. Whereas, you know, history history is often, about making your way through crisis and difficulty and change.

00:24:45 Andrew Keen: You have, of course, a chapter or a section on Martin Luther King junior who famously talked about history's arc tending towards justice. Did did you think of I mean, we all think of that all the time, but do you think your trip supports MLK's thesis, particularly in terms of American history? You deal a lot with slavery and injustice and civil rights.

00:25:13 Beverly Gage: Well, the question of whether or not, the story of American progress, which is part of what King was weighing in on, whether that story is still alive or whether people have given up on it is really one of the central themes of the book. I think if you look at public opinion polls, it's really striking that many people now say that they think that the future is going to be worse than the present or the past, and that is really something new. That's obviously not a great development. But one thing that I found when I was out at historic sites is there are a lot of people who are trying to, imagine this, provide models, think about what progress might mean. There are nefarious forms. There are excellent forms. I will say in the chapter on the civil rights movement, one thing that was really striking to me, and this was especially in Alabama and Mississippi, was how many of the cities that we associate with the great civil rights victories of the fifties and sixties of Montgomery, Alabama, Selma, Birmingham, Jackson, Mississippi, how much those cities really have fallen on incredibly hard times in the decades since. And we tend to see them for this one shining moment in history, but then not tell the story of what came next.

00:26:44 Andrew Keen: How do, narrative of people's lives and the narratives of countries differ? As I said, you wrote this wonderful book on J. Edgar Hoover. His life wasn't an arc of justice, was it? I mean, he was a man of justice, I guess. He defined American justice in the twentieth century. In fact, he kinda monopolized it in his own way. But how do the histories of people and the histories of countries differ?

00:27:10 Beverly Gage: I think they're radically different. It's a different kind of project for a historian to try to sort of be in the mind of a single person and see the world, the way that he saw it in the case of J. Edgar Hoover, but also retain your own voice in your own distance. And that's kind of the challenge of being a biographer. The challenge of this book was to try to have so many perspectives and so many voices in conversation with each other. And that was exciting too, but it had in a funny way, it required a lot more choices. So if you're writing a biography, you kinda have to do everything that mattered to that person, and that has its own logic. Whereas this, by definition, was just a highly selective tour. I think I selected well, but nonetheless, a highly selective tour, through a a whole range of individuals and places.

00:28:11 Andrew Keen: Yeah. As you suggest, I mean, you you know J. Edgar as well as anybody, probably better than himself from

00:28:17 Beverly Gage: For better or worse, I think that is true.

00:28:21 Andrew Keen: But, do you feel, though and I've sort of asked this question before, but let me repeat. I mean, do you feel after these two years in writing of this book, all these 13 trips that you know America better? I mean, maybe not quite as intimately as J. Edgar, but, do you feel more equipped to be an American?

00:28:42 Beverly Gage: I do. I think I have a different imagination of, the geography of the country, the tactile experience of the country, of its incredible variety. But I think I also have a much better sense of how it is connected to each other, different states, different places, different people. Even when they're fighting with each other, they are connected. And that's one of the big themes of the book is that though there are these 13 chapters and 13 different places at 13 different moments in time, the idea is that they are all deeply connected to each other, and they've been in conversation with each other for a long time. I think our political maps these days tend to be red or blue. Right? And they depict a kind of static country that is very divided. There's some truth to that. But that's actually not how most people live their lives either now or then. And it's much more about this fluidity, this set of of connections, and this giant expanse that's actually pretty hard to generalize about, though I do try.

00:29:56 Andrew Keen: The book, of course, it's out this week, is designed by the marketing folks, I'm sure, Simon and Schuster to coordinate with the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of of the American Republic. How are you gonna be celebrating or or not celebrating, in, in July, Beverly?

00:30:16 Beverly Gage: So I haven't settled on my fourth of July plan yet. Although I do live in a city that has spectacular fireworks every July 4. It's one of the things that New Haven

00:30:27 Andrew Keen: This is Cheshire, Connecticut?

00:30:29 Beverly Gage: This is New Haven.

00:30:30 Andrew Keen: So New

00:30:30 Beverly Gage: Haven. Which is it's that's the big city around here.

00:30:33 Andrew Keen: Yeah. That's where Yale, of course, is. That's where you teach.

00:30:36 Beverly Gage: Exactly. So that's not a a very big city, but but they do fireworks well. I suspect I will also be giving talks about this book. That will be part of the story too. And my intention was always that this book would be coordinated with the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary. So it wasn't just the marketing folks. That was my aim too in part because I wanted to give Americans a set of tools and other people who might be in the country, a way to engage and explore American history in this historic moment. That would be maybe a little different, a little more engaging than some of the official celebrations might be. So my deepest hope is that people just take this book and hit the road themselves and go explore and find things that I didn't find, but maybe use some of my history as a guide to do that.

00:31:36 Andrew Keen: So perhaps you're searching for a third road somewhere between pride and shame. A lot of the books we have on this show are about how American America has behaved shamefully, slavery, of course, women, Native Americans, foreign policy, working class. Others are about the the pride of economic, military, political achievement. Are you suggesting there is a third road, so to speak, a back street, to borrow some words from Bruce Springsteen?

00:32:07 Beverly Gage: I am suggesting that, and that's part of the theme of the book. And I don't think that I have necessarily come up with all the answers, but I think that just backing away from that challenge is, is a little bit of a concession. And actually, the most interesting things are in, in the tensions between, let's see. What were the words you used? It wasn't love and shame, but something like that. Pride

00:32:37 Andrew Keen: and shame.

00:32:38 Beverly Gage: Pride and shame. Right? I think that that the most interesting things are in the tension between that. I think the challenge of this two hundred and fiftieth year, is to try to put those pieces together. I argue in the book that you can face your history and still love your country, and this is my attempt at doing that. I I hope it succeeds, but it's really an invitation to other people to take up that question, and to figure it out for themselves.

00:33:08 Andrew Keen: Well, you certainly succeeded with me. It's a wonderful read that This Land is Your Land, a road trip through US history. It's out now. Beverly, I have to ask a dumb question at the end. If there's one place that people should go as Americans that will somehow capture that third road, that back street somewhere between pride and shame, where is it? What what was your favorite chapter or place in the book?

00:33:35 Beverly Gage: Well, I loved the chapter on Upstate New York, which is not a place that most people think about going. This is the corridor of the Erie Canal from Albany up to Buffalo. And in the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties, it became a place where people were wrestling with the most fundamental questions of American history, of their own American identities. And it's this incredible cast of characters who's there. It's Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony.

00:34:08 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:09 Beverly Gage: And they're all there, and they're just they're in it together. They're trying to think of Quite

00:34:14 Andrew Keen: literally sometimes, aren't they? Quite literally sometimes.

00:34:18 Beverly Gage: Yeah. They're neighbors.

00:34:20 Andrew Keen: Experimenting with different kinds of marriage and sexual relations.

00:34:25 Beverly Gage: They're writing their own constitutions and rethinking their own declarations of independence. And, you know, Frederick Douglass gives that famous speech about the July 4, in Rochester, New York. And there he is wrestling with what it means, to be in The United States, to be American, and yet to be at odds with his, country in fundamental ways.

00:34:48 Andrew Keen: And, of course, Rochester, New York was also where Kodak was born. Beverly Gage, lovely to talk to you. Congratulations on the new book. It's already out. This Land is Your Land, a road trip through US history in its own way. It's a wonderful compliment to your magnificent biography of J. Edgar Hoover. Thank you so much. And, Beverly, we'll have to certainly get you when's the when's the Reagan thing done?

00:35:10 Beverly Gage: Oh, well, see, that one's gonna take a while. So, we'll

00:35:14 Andrew Keen: get there that way. More more than ten minutes? More than well, we'll look forward to seeing that. I'm sure it will be, a very important work. Thank you again, and congratulations on the book.

00:35:25 Beverly Gage: Great. Thanks so much.