At the Heart of the American Center: Corey Nathan on How to Talk Politics and Religion Without Killing Each other

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It's more than a week now that a great American died — Robert Mueller. Robert Mueller the Third. He was 81 years old. He rebuilt the FBI and led the Trump inquiry, according to the obituary in The New York Times. Donald Trump, of course, surprise surprise, suggested that he was, quote, unquote, glad Robert Mueller died. It's an unusual thing to say about death. We're supposed to be polite at least about people who have recently departed. The Atlantic's David Frum, one of Donald Trump's most persistent and articulate critics, suggests that Trump owes Mueller — because of Mueller's involvement in the 2016 election. Some people refer to Robert Mueller as a tragedy. Maybe it's an American tragedy. He certainly was a great American hero, and my guest today has argued that he was in every sense a scholar and a gentleman, a true U.S. patriot. Corey Nathan is the host of a top 1% podcast, Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other, and it's an energetic show. Corey himself is very energetic, and I'm thrilled that he's joining us. So, Corey, what does the Mueller death and the response — both on the left and the right — tell us about what's gone wrong with discourse in America today?

00:02:04 Corey Nathan: Well, it's a really central question. I appreciate it. First of all, thanks for having me on, Andrew. It's great to be with you. I've admired your work for quite some time. I do think that Mueller's death and then the current president's response to it exemplifies a contrast that we have — an us-versus-them mindset. At the end of the day, Robert Mueller is a decorated veteran. He served our country. He got a Purple Heart, among other recognition, as a veteran in Vietnam. He had an Ivy League education, got his law degree from UVA, and yet he chose to use those degrees for public service. He served under presidents of both parties in Senate-confirmed roles. He stayed on longer in his term as director of the FBI, especially at a needed time after 9/11. So regardless of what one's political stripes, which side one leans on, we can still admire a fellow like this, his service to our country. And yet the current president chose to — forgive me for being blunt — piss on his grave.

00:03:25 Andrew Keen: Right. So it's not hard to make this another opportunity to bash Trump, and regular viewers and listeners to the show know that I'm no friend of Donald Trump. And the fact that he came out publicly and said he was glad that Mueller died is a very juvenile kind of statement. But leaving aside the Trump element — what does the recent life and death of Mueller tell us? As I said, David Frum, who's as committed a centrist as you can get, suggested that Trump owes Mueller, and that Mueller wasn't at least very much of a popular figure on the left either. You run this podcast, Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other. What does it tell us more broadly — leaving Trump out of it, because he tends to dominate and ruin most conversations — what does it tell us more broadly about our failure to talk to one another?

00:04:19 Corey Nathan: Yeah. The tendency for many of us is to look at one data point — for example, how we voted at the top of our ballot in the last election — and then to use that as a proxy for an entire caricature that we make of someone who disagrees with us on that one thing. So if we're able to take this issue, for example: I know plenty of folks who may have voted a certain way in the last election, but if they are raising their kids, they would try to imbue in their children the very virtues that were exemplified by Robert Mueller. But because of — and not to get into talking about Trump — he came up with a few slogans about Robert Mueller, and just because of that, it's like we have these intellectual coat hangers that make us dismissive of Robert Mueller's entire life and work. And yet he does exemplify those very virtues, those very characteristics, that we want to see in any of our kids as we're raising them. So if we can cut through those political reflexes and actually see each other in our humanity — beyond just one data point, that being how we might have voted in the last election — I think that'll help recapture what many of us want: more healthy civic conversations.

00:05:48 Andrew Keen: "Many of us want" — I'm quoting you, Corey, speaking on behalf of fellow Americans. I don't know who the many are. How do you know that? We've done many shows on this subject, as you know. I know you're a regular listener and viewer of the show, which I'm thrilled about. We've had many people on from many organizations talking about how Americans want to be able to talk to one another, but it's been ruined by people on the left and the right. How do you know that?

00:06:19 Corey Nathan: There have been plenty of studies on this. There is quantitative data on it. I think one of the most definitive was a study called Hidden Tribes, done by More in Common, and thousands and thousands of people were involved in this. So they have a pretty good data set.

00:06:35 Andrew Keen: And More in Common is a network. I know you're also a big fan of the Village Square as well as Braver Angels. We've done a number of shows with Braver Angels — Monica Guzman. In fact, on my other show, How to Fix Democracy, just did something on the resilience of democracy with its new CEO, Maury Giles.

00:06:53 Corey Nathan: Oh, yeah. Monica has become a good pal of mine. In fact, I just spoke with Will Wilkinson yesterday. He voted for Trump, and Monica and Will are good pals. But the More in Common study that came out — Beyond MAGA — you just shared one, a more recent one, Beyond MAGA, that identified four different types of Trump voters. I thought that was a great study. Their broader study, the Hidden Tribes study, was done in 2018, and they're going to have an update to that in the next year. The main takeaway from that is: in looking at folks who identify as either right of center or left of center, what they found was only about 6 or 7% of people who identify on the right are what we would think of as extremes — and they tend to dominate a lot of our consciousness. They're the loudest voices in the room. And only 7 or 8% of people who identify on the left are what we would think of as extremes — which means that 85% of us are really much more nuanced in our views. So, yeah, we might vote largely Democratic. We might vote largely Republican. But when it comes to individual issues, we might go one way or the other. And at the end of the day, those 85% of us are what's called the exhausted majority. We want to be able to go to our Memorial Day barbecue. We want to go to the church potluck or the Seder that's coming up, or just to Thanksgiving dinner with Uncle Stan, and be able to have a conversation and enjoy being around people — as opposed to thinking that 85% are the extremes. It's just the opposite. So that's what we found, and I think those numbers will hold true.

00:08:40 Andrew Keen: But is the problem, then — from what More in Common discovered and from what you think — is the problem as much in your mind from the left as from the right? I mean, we know about Trump. It's hard not to know about him. He's ubiquitous, for better or worse. But the critics of the woke movement, for example, suggest that the illiberalism on the left is as bad as on the right. In your view, are the left and the right morally equivalent? Are they as bad as each other in terms of destroying civic discourse?

00:09:14 Corey Nathan: I don't think it's an equal both-sides issue. I do think that there are problems on the extremes. It's more like a horseshoe — at the end of the day, the extreme left and the extreme right find that they're coming right back together, in ways that neither would admit to. I don't think it's exactly equivalent, but I'm not going to sit here and blame one side or the other. There are commonalities there in that the incentives are the same. Conflict entrepreneurs — at the end of the day, it's just a competition for attention. It's a competition for who's going to be the loudest voices in the room. So there are similarities there, but I hesitate to get into the both-sides game, because some of the tendencies are a little bit different even if the competition for attention is the same. Am I evading your question?

00:10:15 Andrew Keen: Is that an answer? You're evading the question. No — I don't know the answer to it either, which is why I'm asking it. I mentioned Braver Angels. I went to their last two national conventions as a guest of Monica and the rest of the senior people. Did lots of interviews there, including with Jonathan Rauch, who I know has been on your show. It was in Gettysburg and then in Kenosha, which was symbolically halfway between Milwaukee and Chicago — the venues of the Democratic and Republican conventions. My sense of the kind of people who go to these Braver Angels conventions is that they strike me as being kind of shell-shocked. They don't quite know what happened. It's like watching people after a bomb has gone off. What's your sense of how people, Corey, are reacting to what's happened in America? Are they in themselves sort of casualties of what's happening? Are they resilient? Are they responding? Are they angry? Are they resigned?

00:11:23 Corey Nathan: Shell-shocked, I think, is a good word for it. The exhausted majority is maybe a good way to understand it. When I talk to folks all day every day, what I find is that whether somebody tends to vote more with Republicans or more with Democrats, a vast majority of folks just need to figure out how to get their kids to soccer practice. They just need to figure out how to get to work and pay the bills. And they're exhausted by the barrage of "the world is going to end" type headlines. So a lot of folks just end up tuning out to the degree that they can. But then when we get into the actual issues, a lot of folks have certain issues that they're more passionate about than others, whether it's immigration or abortion or gun rights or democracy itself. So there is some engagement there. But the prevailing desire is the ability to come out on my driveway and see my next-door neighbor regardless of what news channel is playing in his house, and be able to enjoy a neighborhood barbecue, enjoy July 4 with my neighbors regardless of what political jersey they're wearing. I had a conversation an hour ago with a lady who probably votes differently than I do, but she said, you know, I just want to be able to have a nice conversation with my neighbor.

00:12:52 Andrew Keen: Yeah. It's interesting — you're talking to me from your home in northern LA County, very much sort of classic America. A lot of people from outside — we do lots of shows as well, Corey, with people from overseas looking in at America, and they're mystified by a country that seems to be dramatically changing. It's harder and harder actually to come to America. Visas, even tourist visas, are hard to come by now. But you've mentioned barbecues and July 4 celebrations and Thanksgiving and kids' soccer practices. For people outside America who are listening or watching this — if they happened to come to your home, would they see anything different? I mean, is it self-evident that something's gone profoundly wrong here, or is America still operating at that level, in the suburbs of where you live?

00:13:53 Corey Nathan: That's a fair question. Here's what comes to mind — it might not sound like I'm answering directly, but my family: I'm two generations removed from my family having lived in what's now called Chernihiv, Ukraine. They lived there — it was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years. But you know how it was. The lines changed. So at one point it was Poland or Prussia or Russia, now it's Ukraine. My family lived in that region for what we can discern is about eight hundred years. And you could have asked my family that very question: is anything different? Has anything changed? And on one day to the next, it might not feel that way — until it does. Until the Bolshevik Revolution happens, until World War One happens, until, you know, one week after Easter, the Cossacks rampaged through and burned down the houses of my own family. And, to be very blunt, raped my grandmother's and great-grandmother's generations and conscripted my great-uncles into the army. I'm not saying we're at that point, but who would have thought that this country would have gone through a violent attack on our very Capitol on January 6? And what's even worse is that a terrible event like that is being dismissed — they were already workshopping talking points of how to deal with it. Oh, well, what did you expect?

00:15:33 Andrew Keen: I take your point, but I don't want to turn this into another January 6 conversation. You're not answering my question. My question was: if somebody from Ukraine or France or Liberia were airlifted into your suburban home in northern Los Angeles County and spent a few days with you, going to your barbecues, ferrying your kids around for soccer practice, chatting with the neighbors over your fence — would they notice anything different? Would there be anything self-evident that something's gone seriously wrong with this country? I mean, you may have some ICE agents wandering around, although I'm guessing in your relatively prosperous suburb, that's not the case.

00:16:13 Corey Nathan: Actually, at the church that I go to, we had to have that conversation about two months ago. Our pastor had to have the conversation because ICE was going to neighboring churches. It turned out they haven't come to our church yet, but we had to have the conversation: if ICE comes to our church, they're welcome to worship with us — but here are our legal obligations, and here's what we're not legally obligated to do. So the answer to your question directly is: today, at my house, no. But at my church, just two months ago — and our neighboring church — the answer is yes. There was a neighborhood street just two months ago where a suburban mom who had the crumbs of her kids' snacks in her front seat was shot in the head. So the answer is today in my house, no. But these things are happening all over our country. So I don't want to be alarmist. I don't want to be hyperbolic. But I think if we're not paying attention to the degree to which the very rights that are guaranteed to us by the First Amendment — they're not given to us, they're guaranteed — are being trampled upon and threatened, that's worth the conversation. That's just my point of view. A lot of folks might disagree with me, but that's where I stand. That's what I'm seeing.

00:17:43 Andrew Keen: Well, you're eating your own dog food. You're a professional podcaster, both presenter and producer. Your show, Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other, is a top 1% podcast. What are you doing on the show, Corey, that helps this? How are you talking about politics and religion without killing your guests or the people who may not agree with you? What's your secret sauce?

00:18:14 Corey Nathan: Well, my secret is I beat them over the head until they agree with me. No — so just yesterday, I had a conversation with a fellow who is a good friend of mine, but we disagree passionately on things. And at times, to be honest with you, I've lost it with him.

00:18:32 Andrew Keen: What do you disagree about?

00:18:34 Corey Nathan: Well, for one thing, we have specific disagreements right now about the war with Iran. He thought — but getting underneath the hood and understanding exactly what we disagree about: he thinks that I'm against the war. Just that. As simple as that. So we had a conversation about it, and I specified. I said: listen, I'm not shedding any tears for the death of the Ayatollah. I think the regime is the number one state sponsor of terror. However, I do believe in our Constitution. I believe in the constitutional order. And if there was a good case to be made, the case should have been made, and we should have abided by Article One — the process that Article One provides. So we had disagreements about it. Now my friend happens to have been born in Lebanon. He has family in Iran. So he says, you know, I don't like Trump, but he's the man for the job. There are times in the past where we've had similar disagreements and really butted heads. But at the end of the day, when we can sit down and take the time to understand the nuance of each other's views, I think that's a more productive conversation than simply yelling at each other. And it does take working out. It's like a mental, political, civic exercise — to be able to listen to his reasoning and understand his story and why the circumvention of the Article One process doesn't bother him as much, but also for him to take the time to do that with me. I think that's a productive exercise — to be able to see each other and understand each other's views in a more nuanced way, as opposed to just throwing rocks at each other, dropping rhetorical bombs and memes and scoring points. That's just an unproductive exercise for everyone involved.

00:20:26 Andrew Keen: Yeah. A few days ago, we had the bestselling novelist Colm McCann on the show. He's also the cofounder and president of Narrative 4, which is an organization rooted in people telling each other stories, learning other people's stories, and acquiring their voice. We've done a number of shows recently on storytelling. Is it — in your mind, Corey — about storytelling? The ability to tell other people's stories? Is that the key here?

00:20:56 Corey Nathan: That is a key, because we're storytelling creatures. David Brooks, Monica Guzman — people like that are experts at being able to draw people out of themselves, and a lot of it is through their stories. If I understand your story, if I understand your background, all of a sudden I don't see you as a data point or use a data point to create a caricature of you. But if I understand, in this case, my friend's story — having come from Lebanon and all it took for him to go through the legal immigration process — I understand why he feels so strongly about these things. Same thing with me. You could find one data point and say, oh, well, you couldn't possibly be objective — you're from Jersey. Just one data point, and you draw a cartoon of me. But when we understand each other's stories, we have something more than just this one-dimensional thing to use to attack each other — and we can see each other's humanity. So the stories really do make a big difference.

00:22:04 Andrew Keen: You noted that for many people in your neighborhood, in your suburb of Los Angeles, people are just kind of tuning out. What does it all matter, really, Corey? People's priorities — your neighbors, yourself — are making enough money to pay your mortgage, your rent, feeding and clothing your kids, taking them to soccer practice, having your barbecues, watching television, being online. Does democracy really matter? I mean, if it was taken away and people didn't have the right to vote in the U.S., would it matter to a lot of the people you know?

00:22:42 Corey Nathan: We can survive. We've figured out how to do that.

00:22:51 Andrew Keen: You mean your people — meaning Ukrainian immigrants, or Ukrainians?

00:22:56 Corey Nathan: Yeah. I come from an observant Jewish family. So they were strangers in a strange land wherever we've been for the better part of two thousand years. Ukraine just happened to be the place where my father's side of the family is from. My mother's side of the family is from a little further north — Germany and Romania. So we've been strangers in a strange land in all kinds of hostile territories for thousands of years. So the answer is yes — we could figure out how to survive, but not thrive. And I think that's the difference. Being able to have these conversations — this is a wonderful experiment that we've been living through for just under two hundred and fifty years, since the Declaration, and the Constitution, about a dozen years after that. Being able to live well among each other and thrive among each other — that's a different question. Can we survive? Sure. Can we thrive? I'm not sure.

00:23:58 Andrew Keen: So you're suggesting that thriving requires democracy?

00:24:04 Corey Nathan: Well, it's not the perfect solution. I'm going to butcher the expression, but it's the worst form of government except for every other one.

00:24:17 Andrew Keen: We know that one. All these quotes originate with Winston Churchill.

00:24:21 Corey Nathan: That's right. That's right. Yeah. So I do think that a democratic republic, constitutional democracy — it's really brilliant, allowing for our own frailties as imperfect creatures. It's the way we figured out how to live well among each other. And just being able to talk about it, to have these conversations in healthy ways. You know, another expression is "don't talk about politics and religion." Well, those are pretty important things. And if we're not talking about it, the conflict entrepreneurs are going to take all the oxygen out of the room. So I'd rather the exhausted majority — the vast majority of us, the 85% of us — be able to have healthy conversations about it, so that the loudest and most obnoxious people in the room don't dominate these critical, important subjects like politics and religion.

00:25:19 Andrew Keen: It's interesting that you've combined talking about politics and religion. I don't think anyone would disagree on politics, but isn't the foundation of liberalism that we don't talk about religion? There's a separation of church and state, and democracy came out of the doctrinal civil wars, particularly the Christian civil wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. So democracy requires us to talk politics, but not religion — because you can't really talk religion. I mean, what are you going to do — discuss whether or not Luther was right, or whether Mohammed is a better model for goodness than Moses or Jesus?

00:26:09 Corey Nathan: I think those would be fun conversations for sure. But there's something interesting in the First Amendment — one of the most brilliant sentences ever written. I'm oversimplifying, but it has two halves of a critical equation: it has the freedom of religion, but it also has the establishment clause. So while we're free to practice our religion, we're also free from the government imposing religion. The separation of church and state isn't the absence of church and state. So if somebody wanted to talk about comparative religions, I find those fascinating conversations. I want to be able to talk about it without the threat of somebody punching me in the face if I get it wrong. Does that make sense? We have two halves of a really important equation: freedom to practice, while also being free from the government imposing religion.

00:27:08 Andrew Keen: Yeah. That's the standard response, but most of us don't really want to talk religion. We may want to talk to our coreligionists, but most people — whether Orthodox Jew, Muslim, or Christian — don't really want to debate religion, because that's their doctrine. Unless they're academics.

00:27:31 Corey Nathan: Yeah. So if I get the vibe that somebody doesn't want to talk about religion, I'm not going to force them. But frankly, I find a lot of folks actually do. A lot of folks — even I have plenty of friends who are atheist or agnostic — but their core beliefs are something that they hold very closely. So being able to talk with someone in a civil way about our beliefs and compare how we believe — now what I find obnoxious are those who go about it in a salesy way. They want to close the deal. They want to convince you that they're right. I find that entirely uninteresting, at best. But to be able to sit with a friend who I respect, or a family member where we have differences — because my story is: I grew up in an observant Jewish family. We went to an Orthodox synagogue. But in my late twenties, I became a born-again Christian. So I was with my dad last night, and we were talking — twenty-five years later, we're still having these conversations. Thank goodness. So there are some folks who don't want to talk about it — that's fine. We could talk about the Mets. The Mets had a good start to their season yesterday. There's plenty else to talk about. But there are a lot of people who do. And we want to create the space to be able to have healthy conversations, as opposed to feeling like it's a threat — and I might get punched in the face if I say the wrong thing.

00:28:55 Andrew Keen: So how do you have this conversation with your father? You said you're a born-again Christian, and your father's an Orthodox Jew. What do you say to one another on this? Isn't he rather disappointed — bringing you up as an Orthodox Jew and then you switch out? It's like becoming a Yankee fan growing up with a Mets father.

00:29:13 Corey Nathan: You know, it's funny. When I first told him that I became a Christian, he said, "Wait — you're not a Yankee fan too, are you?" Because that would have been a line you can't cross.

00:29:21 Andrew Keen: Would he have talked to you after that?

00:29:25 Corey Nathan: Oh, man. I'm not really sure. I come from a long line of diehard Brooklyn Dodger fans, and then Mets fans from 1962. So yeah, that would have been a line I dare not cross. But in all sincerity, my father had a very negative reaction, as you can imagine, when I first became a Christian. We had very fraught conversations, but thank goodness we did have conversations at all, because his initial reaction — he considered very seriously the possibility of sitting Shiva for me, which is the ritual you go through when an immediate family member dies. So there was a possibility that we wouldn't have a relationship. But to my father's credit, he valued his relationship with his son more than the theological convictions he was feeling. So while those three or four years right after I became a Christian were really, really hard, we just committed to the relationship and committed to staying in the conversation. And now they're so rich — twenty-five years after the fact, these conversations are so rich, and we've learned so much from each other. So I'm glad that we kept the relationship. I'm glad that we're staying in the conversations. I find them fascinating. There's so much to discuss.

00:30:33 Andrew Keen: Speaking of rich conversations, you're a professional podcaster. As I said, you produce and present your own shows and other people's. Is there any money in it? How are you paying your — do you own your own place, Corey, in the city of Los Angeles? Are you making money out of podcasting?

00:30:52 Corey Nathan: Oh, do you want to ask me how much I weigh? Like, are we going to start talking about religion and all the things you're not supposed to talk about? So yeah — thank goodness. We've been able to grow the politics show pretty well. We have advertisers right now. Pew Research is our title sponsor. We've had other advertisers over the years. We also have subscribers, so there are a couple of different revenue streams that we derive from podcasting. I also produce other shows, so we have a whole other revenue stream from production fees that we glean. But yeah, you can grow your show and partner with brands that want to engage well with the audiences that we've built up — like our entertainment show. There's a very specific audience we've built up there that certain companies want to be top of mind with. So thank goodness we've been able to grow these programs, engage audiences — and it's a value to our partners, our corporate sponsors, that help us keep the lights on.

00:31:51 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Your show — maybe you should rename it, or rename this show: Talking Politics, Religion, and Money.

00:31:58 Corey Nathan: There you go. And how much people weigh, and how old you are — like all the stuff you're not supposed to talk about.

00:32:04 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Your sexual preferences and all that sort of thing. Yeah. Well, that will be for next time, Corey. Finally — sometimes, as I said, we have a lot of these conversations. Next month I've got my old friend Adrian Wooldridge on the show, former journalist at The Economist, now with Bloomberg. He has a new book out, The Revolutionary Centre: The Lost Genius of Liberalism. He's a hardcore liberal — as well-educated and articulate a liberal as you'll find. Do you think that we need to be a little bit more — shall we say — ideology gets a bad name in these kinds of conversations. There's always this suggestion that we need to get beyond the ideology of the left or the right. But do people who want to have a more moderate conversation need to become more ideological? Learn more about what Wooldridge calls the revolutionary center, embrace the liberalism of the nineteenth century, learn from it, reread John Stuart Mill and Tocqueville and the other fathers of liberalism, and embrace that doctrine?

00:33:10 Corey Nathan: I think that would be wonderful — to really think through the founding documents, to really dive into the arguments that led to the Federalist Papers, that led to the founding documents. Some of those arguments were just fascinating to me. And to be able to think through the ideas and the philosophies that led to this American experiment — I think it would be a really worthwhile endeavor to become more fluent with some of that thinking. Because instead of just checking the box with our team, we can think through individual issues. We can also think through the goals and the values that we're trying to manifest with some of the legislation and the elected officials that we're backing. Because personally, I don't just check the box for one team or the other. I don't even check the box for one political side or the other.

00:34:11 Andrew Keen: You do when it comes to the Yankees and the Mets, though. Right?

00:34:08 Corey Nathan: Oh, well, that's a different story. I mean, talk about orthodoxy — you've got to be one or the other. Yeah. So I do think it's worth it — it really would be worth it. And that's part of getting to know human beings: they might feel a little bit more red when it comes to immigration policy. They might feel a little bit more liberal when it comes to abortion issues. You know, everybody has different gauges for all these different issues. And I think there's room for that, as opposed to insisting that if you're on my team, we've got to agree all the time. That's, again, not just uninteresting — it's unproductive. It's un-American, frankly. So I'd rather us allow each other to be human beings with all of our nuanced points of view. And let's talk about it.

00:34:55 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And un-American — let's end where we began, with the great American, Robert Mueller. You're not sitting Shiva for him, of course, Corey — partly because you're no longer Jewish, and partly because he wasn't Jewish. But how should we remember Mueller?

00:35:09 Corey Nathan: I think as someone who was a public servant, who could have gone the route of using his degrees to make a lot of money, but chose to serve again in administrations under Democratic and Republican presidents, beyond what his obligation was to the FBI. And he showed a great deal of restraint, even in developing what they call the Mueller Report. So I think he was a good public servant who exhibited a lot of integrity and a lot of the characteristics that we'd want our own kids to develop. I think that's a more fair way to remember Robert Mueller.

00:35:54 Andrew Keen: Well, there you have it. Corey Nathan, who grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family, converted to Christianity, and didn't get killed by his father — must be a generous man, Corey. As always, lovely to talk to you. Best of luck with the show. This might run on both of our shows. It's always nice to have a fellow podcaster on the show. Best of —

00:36:16 Corey Nathan: — luck with all your work. Thanks for doing this, Andrew. This is a lot of fun.