A Time for Monsters: David Masciotra Looks Back in Anger at the First Six Months of 2026 in America

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. A few days ago, I did my regular technology weekly show with Keith Teare, and he asks what time it is. And we talked about what moment we're in world history. He imagines we're in nineteen o five, the failed first Russian revolution and the Japanese defeat of, of Russia, which marked the beginning of the end of the Russian Empire and maybe the beginning of the end of Europe. Anyway, the other what time we're in is we're already through the first half of the 2026 year. We're well into July, and I thought it would be a good opportunity to talk to an old friend of the show, David Masciotra, cultural critic, political observer, about what's been happening in America and in the world in 2026 for the first six months. So, David, let me ask you. What time is it in July 2026? Is it we in nineteen o five, 1914, 1789, 1848, 1968, or none of those years?

00:01:42 David Masciotra: Well, it would be hard to pinpoint it on the calendar, but I share the general thought, of your previous guest that we're in some period of the past as this year, 2026, we've seen many of the old gods stumble back onto the landscape. The old gods of nationalism, the old gods of male chauvinism, the old gods of paranoia and conspiracism. And it seems as if, you know, a long time ago a Polish sociologist who I quoted in my book Exurbia Now, Bauman is his last name.

00:02:30 Andrew Keen: Zygmunt Bauman, taught at Leeds University who died recently.

00:02:34 David Masciotra: Yes. Yes. You know, he wrote quite brilliantly about moving from an age of solidity to liquidity. We're in a liquid age in which nothing feels stable, nothing is predictable, so that in inculcates nostalgic longing in people, and that nostalgia is often, irrational and ill informed, but people want to return to stability. So they're looking for the answers in the resurrection of manufacturing, which isn't going to happen, or the resurrection of building entire society around a nuclear family with a dominant male figure in the household. That's not going to happen. Return to religion. You know, the Washington Post reported that more and more young people, you know, believe it or not, has even though I'm cast in this heavenly glow, I can't believe it, are looking at Catholicism for the answers. So we're certainly in an old time with the old gods and waiting for the future to appear.

00:03:48 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And one of the quotes that gets repeated endlessly in the first half of 2026 has been the one from the Italian historical, a philosopher of history, Antonio Gramsci, who, famously said, the crisis consists precisely this is, I think, from his prison notebooks. Yes. It's the crisis. Consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum, a great variety of morbid symptoms appear. And it's this idea of an interregnum. We're living between periods, but we don't quite know what they are. Maybe we know what it what period we're coming out of, but we don't really quite understand where we're going.

00:04:34 David Masciotra: Right. Right. It's precisely it. And most people misquote that as monsters, morbid instead of morbid symptoms, monsters, mama. [unclear]

00:04:43 Andrew Keen: Get it got translated both ways, and it depends who's doing the translating. But the monsters one also works, doesn't it, or you don't think it does?

00:04:52 David Masciotra: It depends on how it's used. I don't

00:04:54 Andrew Keen: He said he meant a time for monsters. In other words and I think that fits our age. We're living in a time of monsters, an age of paranoia where Yes. Everything is treated in an apocalyptic kind of way.

00:05:06 David Masciotra: Right. Right. And that's essential. I guess, I suppose I was using old gods in the way that one could use monsters and that we, in seeking the stability that has transformed into thin ice or to return to Bauman, in liquid, an authoritarian impulse is manifesting because the strong man promises strength. So people are, rushing back to the old institutions, the old paranoias, the old scapegoat tactics, because they believe that this promises the stability that our society no longer offers. But even with the increase in cost in living and the, the challenges of modernity, it's still rather easy to argue that the quality of life now, at least in the Western world, is much better than it was, for my parents' generation, certainly for my grandparents' generation, and yet we live in an age of anxiety. We live in an age of doom scrolling and pessimism. The one of the more recent appearances I made on your program, you were kind enough to question me about my many years of work with the late Jesse Jackson. And one of the things I was thinking about in reviewing the first six months of 2026 is the absence of a benevolent vision. I admire Jackson very much, but even those who didn't, would at least acknowledge that he projected a benevolent vision for our society.

00:07:04 Andrew Keen: Oh, yeah. Although, David, I have to admit, and I kind of half regret this. So I have an opportunity now to come back at you. We did an interesting, conversation with Jackson after his death. You wrote a biography, perhaps the best biography on Jackson.

00:07:20 David Masciotra: Oh, thank you.

00:07:21 Andrew Keen: But the one thing I forgot to bring up was the controversies about his Hymietown remarks. How does he for you, I know you're a fair observer. You're not gonna write some hagiography. Did that was that chapter, that episode in any way undermining, Jackson's

00:07:53 David Masciotra: 1984. It certainly did because he was touring the country talking about building a rainbow coalition and, you know, universality of brotherhood and sisterhood. But I will and I deal with this thoroughly in my book, but I will say that he, he genuinely changed after that comment. You know, I saw it up close and personal decades after he made the comment. He became an while still maintaining some criticism of Israel, of course, Israel's conduct, he became an ally to Jews all around the world, doing a great deal of work with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, advocating for Soviet Jewry when he met with Gorbachev in the eighties. And one of his daughters actually converted to Judaism, and her rabbi spoke very movingly at Reverend Jackson's funeral about how he would regularly attend temple services with his daughter who was a convert. So in Chicago and all around the world, he spent years, trying to offer recompense for that remark that threatened to fracture, black Jewish relations and the rainbow coalition. And it's actually, an appropriate story to reflect upon now.

00:09:29 Andrew Keen: Right. That's what I'm thinking. Because I know you have we talked before we went live about some of the themes that you think have dominated the first six months of the year. You're concerned with the impact of anti Israel slash antisemitism, and I'm this is not gonna be a show on the difference between anti Israel and antisemitism because that's very boring. You can find other shows that discuss that endlessly. But I know you're concerned with its impact on the left, the preoccupation of the left, the American left with Israel and antisemitism and this whole question of American Jewry and Israel, which, which maybe because of what happened with Jackson, he was able to address.

00:10:18 David Masciotra: Yeah. It's I'm very concerned about it for two reasons. First of all, you know, and I won't spend too much time on this either because I agree with you, it's it's boring and redundant. But the criticism of Israeli conduct following October 7 for many on the left has morphed into an all encompassing paranoia and world view in which the nefarious forces of, AIPAC, Zionists, and Zionist donors, and what they call the Epstein class, control everything. Not just policy within Israel itself, but everything around the world.

00:11:01 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Mary [unclear], I mean, you use this web, Epstein class, and I found a couple of web pages with, of course, that title. So this is not just David Masciotra. This is a real term that now gets thrown around.

00:11:16 David Masciotra: Right. Thrown around quite haphazardly and abusively. I But

00:11:21 Andrew Keen: does that only associate with Israel? I mean, you can be part of the Epstein class and not be Jewish or not be pro Israel, presumably.

00:11:28 David Masciotra: Well, when it's coupled with, like, the recently disgraced and fallen candidate for the senate in Maine, Graham Platner, in his speeches, he would always couple it. I thought, in quite a sinister way with AIPAC and Zionism. So, you know, when you've got AIPAC Zionism and then Epstein class, the emphasis on this Jewish, sex criminal's name. You can see he's building a world view there and

00:12:02 Andrew Keen: A crescendo, a climax

00:12:04 David Masciotra: Many others have done that, and I think that's quite dangerous. I mean, this is antisemitic conspiracy theory and mongering 101. And it's also you use the word preoccupation. Increasingly, it's becoming some kind of bizarre litmus test in politics within the Democratic party. So, you know, if you're running for, the senate in Maine or congress in Denver, Colorado or, even governor of California, you have to declare that Israel is committing genocide, that AIPAC is the worst and most evil of all lobbies. And I think that this is all not only dangerous on its own merits because it stirs up hatred and suspicion of Jews, but it's also going to come back to bite the Democratic party because

00:13:03 Andrew Keen: many people already has, I think. I mean, you mentioned the Platner thing, which is one of the main narratives

00:13:11 David Masciotra: I mean, imagine you're a voter.

00:13:12 Andrew Keen: In terms of the Democratic party.

00:13:15 David Masciotra: Yeah. Imagine you're a voter in Michigan who is predominantly concerned with the cost of living and civil rights here at home, and you're listening to a Democratic primary, debate and all the candidates are discussing is this country the size of New Jersey thousand [unclear] I mean, at best, you're gonna think this is really bizarre. This has nothing to do with —

00:13:43 Andrew Keen: Could make the same argument, David, about 1968 and Vietnam. I mean, Vietnam at that point, I know you'll say that there were many hundreds of thousands of American troops there and all the rest of it. But could one argue that Gaza, Israel is or at least should be the Vietnam of 2026?

00:14:05 David Masciotra: I wouldn't make that comparison because, I mean, I'm trying to avoid getting into the whole conversation about Gaza, but I think that this idea that Israel was committing genocide, it took off on October 8, 2023. And although there is plenty of room to criticize, rebuke, and ridicule Israeli conduct after October 7, The genocide thing was always overwrought and was always a way to, smuggle through customs all of the antisemitic baggage that we're seeing attached to, this increasingly paranoid and bigoted world view that's now consuming democratic party politics. The Vietnam war was directly a direct policy of The United States, and it was ongoing. I mean, now the Israeli Gaza war is largely over, and yet this is still a litmus test on Democratic party politics. And if you listen very closely to these DSA candidates, they no longer talk about Netanyahu, they no longer talk about the Israeli government, they just talk about Israel, AIPAC, and Zionists. So the language has become much less precise, it's become much broader, and therefore it's enabling them to cast a much wider net. And, there are all kinds of consequences. So just today, PEN America put out a report that, literary agents are discussing how Jewish authors, are increasingly rejected by publishing companies. Politically, you're seeing a real rejection of anyone who refuses to, denounce Israel in the most vicious and, extreme terms. So this militancy

00:16:30 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And it's coming out I mean, you've written about it, David, I know, on lots of fronts. You're an interesting piece on in UnHerd about why the Democrats are giving Graham Platner a free pass. Maybe we'll come to the Platner thing in a second. And it also reflects the rise of, a left activist class within the Democratic Party. There's Mamdani, of course, but the woman now has become the pinup on the left. And also, for people who are critical of all this is a woman called Darializa Avila Chevalier. Have you come across her? What do you think of her?

00:17:07 David Masciotra: Oh, yeah. Well, she's a good example of what I'm describing. I mean, I because she was an organizer of the October 8 rally in New York that, AOC denounced and other very progressive politicians denounced as, essentially celebrating Hamas and celebrating the Hamas attack. So there's there's been a very, very quick move in to use the famous Daniel Patrick Moynihan phrase defining deviancy down. The standards keep getting lower and Kiros running for congress in Denver, you know, she has said that the October seventh attack is a consequence of apartheid. So essentially, you know, blaming Israel for the, slaughter and rape and torture of, over a thousand civilians, many of whom were peaceniks, celebrating and dancing at a peace festival. So this is all review, but when we're talking about 2026, I think one of the most important stories to discuss and to monitor moving forward is this collapse of the progressive left, into not only antisemitism, but tolerance for misogyny, the enforcement of I don't even wanna call it purity tests, but adherence to these weird views.

00:18:45 Andrew Keen: So this is the Platner story too? This is why Yeah. I mean some people on the left clung to Platner even if he clearly was I mean, even he acknowledged guilty of, if not rape, certainly some questionable behavior with women.

00:19:01 David Masciotra: Platner's probably the most salient example of it because, much more interesting and noteworthy than him is all of the people who defended him up until the very last moment. It was very reminiscent of the behavior of Republicans surrounding Trump in, 2016 and 2020.

00:19:27 Andrew Keen: There's Of course, the pussy remark. The grandpa pussy remark. [as spoken; presumably Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” remark]

00:19:30 David Masciotra: There's This idea that, you know, might makes right and, authenticity means, cruelty and vulgarity and therefore any aspiration to virtue or enforcement of moral standards of decency, is merely virtue signaling and phoniness. This kind of, deranged and poisonous thinking that has come to dominate Republican party politics is now gaining more and more purchase on the left. And this is a very worrisome development. I say this as someone who votes Democrat in every election, as someone whose views are pretty well to the left, but I don't want to live in a country where we have two parties that have sacrificed and surrendered, ethics and, restraint in the name of the authenticity, boogaboo, to quote, Stanley Crouch, the late Stanley Crouch. And like the right, the right got into this mania of nationalistic xenophobia. We see the consequences of that now on the streets with ICE and in detention centers, that are ICE run. The left is developing its own paranoid form of bigotry, surrounding Jews. They may call them Zionists and AIPAC, but we all know who they're talking about.

00:21:13 Andrew Keen: Some people might say, David, well, this is all very well, but look at the crisis and indeed collapse of the center left throughout the world, Biden, Starmer, the collapse the entire disappearance of the center left in France, maybe even in Germany. And that what you're describing, maybe you're describing the extreme wing, the Darializa Avila Chevalier side, which might be extreme. They're the, the Freikorps maybe of the left. But it's an essential move for the left. If they're actually gonna be able to compete with Trump, Trumpism, MAGA, they have to take on some of that language. You and I have had this conversation before. There's the congresswoman in, Texas, who I know you quite admire. So — Oh, former president. [unclear] Throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to becoming more populist, but at the same time not falling into the distasteful miasma of left populism with its anti Semitic, associations.

00:22:35 David Masciotra: Yeah. Well, that's actually that's what I was about to get to. I mean, I don't have the answer. If I did, I would be, you know, trying to share it with anyone who would listen.

00:22:46 Andrew Keen: If you did, you'd be working for Gavin Newsom. Right.

00:22:50 David Masciotra: Yeah. God help me. But, that's the point I was trying to get to with bringing up, you know, my late friend and biographical subject, Jesse Jackson. If someone did come along with the benevolent vision right now. And Jackson was a populist when he ran in '84 and '88. My question was going to be, would anyone listen? And that is the, I think, the biggest crux and crisis of our time, not only in The United States, but as you suggest with your other examples around the world in how do we restore a vision of politics that rather than having its basis in rage, even though anger is necessary in any social movement, but instead of rage and resentment, having a basis in coalition politics and, something affirmational. I recently conducted an interview with, the great civil rights hero of The United States right now, Bryan Stevenson. And this is one of the topics that we discussed. So

00:24:03 Andrew Keen: And you might just remind everyone, David of Bryan Stevenson. He was just he just had a I said to you this before we went live. There was just a long interview with him and, Ezra Klein. I know you're writing a piece about Stevenson too.

00:24:22 David Masciotra: Yes. Stevenson is the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative in Alabama. He was, instrumental in freeing several, innocent men from death row who had been sentenced to die because they were, sliced and diced in a racist and sclerotic system of criminal justice. He's emerged because of that reason as the leading advocate for criminal justice reform in The United States, and he's also spearheaded the legacy sites, museums, and remembrance project, which is designed to memorialize in physical spaces, slavery and lynching. But he has a very inspiring and hopeful message, and he believes in positive change. I would say in The United States Of America, the moral center of our politics throughout our history was and remains the civil rights movement. So I don't know how you do it in The UK, or Germany, or Italy, or France, or even Japan that's becoming increasingly conservative. But in The United States, a resurrection and an amplification of not only civil rights rhetoric but civil rights ethos could restore that moral center. That's one reason why I'm quite fond of Senator Raphael Warnock in Georgia, because he comes out of the civil rights tradition.

00:26:04 Andrew Keen: Well, his church is the old MLK church. Yeah. That would be cool. Literally out of that tradition. Exactly. I'm still in it. I know you've been quite critical. You wrote an interesting piece for UnHerd recently on, what you call and I like this term. I'm not sure if it's yours. The Democrat's luxury belief agenda. You associated Hasan Piker on that wing of the party. What is this luxury belief agenda of the Democrats? And why is it so dangerous?

00:26:34 David Masciotra: It's a it's a very good segue. Because in that piece, I write about how, back in the day, voter turnout would revolve around, local groups on the ground, or if it was in black neighborhoods, black churches working in coordination with the NAACP, National Urban League, Jackson's Rainbow PUSH Coalition, and it was bottom up. It was what issues concern you as voters in the inner city of Chicago or LA. Those are the issues we'll get our candidates to discuss. Now these streamers are having increasingly powerful influence in political campaigns. So Hasan Piker, who's I find a rather repulsive, figure.

00:27:29 Andrew Keen: Is he on the, the Chevalier wing of the party?

00:27:32 David Masciotra: Yes. He was he's a streamer operating out of Los Angeles, California, and yet he got his audience, which is quite large, to make thousands of calls on behalf of Chevalier in New York and on behalf of Kiros in Denver. So what that means is you deprioritize the local issues on the ground because Piker knows nothing about those. He's talking to a screen like I am right now in his Los Angeles home.

00:28:07 Andrew Keen: And, David, you're on one of the most important podcasts on the Internet.

00:28:11 David Masciotra: Oh, yeah. Well, the all of our problems would go away if Andrew Keen became the most influential, streamer. But that just goes —

00:28:20 Andrew Keen: I know you don't think very much of some of the leading podcasters, but that's another stream.

00:28:27 David Masciotra: But what it does do is it deprioritizes local concerns and needs. It amplifies and scaffolds luxury beliefs. And luxury beliefs refer to beliefs, the consequences of which will not affect those who harbor them. So Israel is a good example. Making an issue all about Israel and Palestine is fine for the wealthy, educated, white progressives who are supporting these DSA candidates. It's probably not going to work out so well for the working class, blacks and Latinos who did not vote for these candidates. Defunding the police is another example of a luxury belief. I'm I've written very often about the need for significant police reform, but withdrawing police from low income high crime neighborhoods is not popular with the people who live in those neighborhoods. But it is popular with progressives who live outside of those neighborhoods because it's a luxury belief. The progressives outside those neighborhoods won't be left to deal with the consequences. So streamers who have a national audience, as they become more influential, whether it's Piker on the left or Nick Fuentes, unapologetic white supremacist on the right, they're going to champion luxury beliefs because they don't have the knowledge, capacity, or resources to champion local concerns. And that will only make our political discourse more divisive and more detached from the needs of actual people on the ground in these, districts and in these states.

00:30:25 Andrew Keen: Yeah. And Phil Fuentes [as spoken; presumably Nick Fuentes], of course, is a neo Nazi. Not very

00:30:28 David Masciotra: Yes.

00:30:29 Andrew Keen: Keen on the Jews either. There was an interesting piece on the in The Wall Street Journal, to put it mildly, to and recently about what Trump voters are saying about the economy now. So how does the left win back Trump voters, which are the core to the middle ground? I'm not sure if that's the right term. But, certainly, if they're to win back power, not just in the midterms, David, later this year, which will define 2026 ultimately, but also in 2028, they gotta win back some of the white working class that voted for Trump. How do they do that?

00:31:05 David Masciotra: So it's a very good question. One thing that won't work, and then I'll try to get to what perhaps might work, is, working class drag, working class cosplay. That was what they attempted to do with Graham Platner, because Platner, although he wasn't really working class, he had a good way of presenting himself as working class.

00:31:36 Andrew Keen: He had working class tattoos.

00:31:38 David Masciotra: Right. He had working class tattoos including a Totenkopf, but he didn't know what that meant. And he

00:31:47 Andrew Keen: I'm not sure whether it's better. I'm not sure whether his defense that he didn't know what it meant is worse than acknowledging that he did know what it mean.

00:31:57 David Masciotra: Right. It's like, you know, pick a card. You're either an idiot or a Nazi. You know, you know, this is a great —

00:32:05 Andrew Keen: The problem, the reality is he's a little bit of both.

00:32:08 David Masciotra: Right. Exactly. Yeah. There's a lot of overlap with those two categories. But, you know, he if you if you he always looked like he had just changed a tire, and he always talked as if he was a pro wrestler, you know, Susan Collins. Like, he was cutting this wrestler.

00:32:26 Andrew Keen: Have a good voice. You gotta give him that.

00:32:29 David Masciotra: Yeah. But it was, the delivery was so strident. I mean, it was like, like I said, it was like Hulk Hogan, you know, going into the steel cage. And what the polls were showing I mean, we'll never know because this, buffoon dropped out of the race because, he's been accused credibly of sexual assault and domestic violence.

00:32:53 Andrew Keen: But the Well, I mean, more, more, more. I mean, he's been accused of rape, which

00:32:58 David Masciotra: Yes. Rape. I

00:32:59 Andrew Keen: The most extreme kind of sexual assault.

00:33:01 David Masciotra: Rape. Yeah. Exactly. Rape and domestic violence, by multiple women. But the polls were showing that Susan Collins was actually ahead of him before he dropped out. And the theory was that he would win back the white working class vote. He was doing far worse with white working class voters than Collins' previous opponent. So I don't think that white working class voters are merely looking for someone who will wear the right costume and, speak in the right gravelly voice. They've become increasingly partisan, increasingly disdainful of the Democratic party, which is what makes this incredibly difficult. But they do have real beliefs. You know, they are social conservatives. Those are real beliefs.

00:34:02 Andrew Keen: Well, everyone has real beliefs. Whether they're working class or I mean, even your, luxury belief Democrats, they have real beliefs.

00:34:11 David Masciotra: Right.

00:34:11 Andrew Keen: Some of which actually impact on their lives.

00:34:14 David Masciotra: Right. Right. Many white working class voters, are as genuine in their belief as educated progressives. So, you know, how do you try to appeal to them? One thing that I will say is that it prob if you look at the people who have appealed to them in the past, even though things have changed, it is people who find a way to speak directly to their concerns, and not speak in the nomenclature and the verbiage of a consultant firm or what is trendy with the progressive left. And one interesting thing to come out about Platner was, the terms that appeared most consistently in his fundraising emails and in his speeches, his, his stump speeches, were, as I was saying earlier, AIPAC, Zionism, Epstein class. And I don't think if you're a farmer or a home health nurse, or nursing aide in Maine, or a retail employee, what's first and foremost on your mind is AIPAC.

00:35:46 Andrew Keen: So Yeah. It's like a drinking game. If you don't bring up Gaza, the Epstein class, I mean, obviously Trump, JD Vance, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, then, then there's something wrong with you. Let's just be clear, though, David, with what you're saying. You're you know, some people might think, oh, this Masciotra character is just another defender of the establishment democratic, elite guys like Stephen Colbert. But you've been quite critical of Colbert and of what you call establishment liberalism. So you're you're not a supporter of establishment liberalism any more than you're a believer in the luxury belief agenda of left wing democrats. So is there a space between this the old establishment and luxury belief, the Democrats? Is it further to the left? Is it a compromise? Where does one go?

00:36:43 David Masciotra: I think that's first of all, you described me correctly. I fall into a category that Pew Research calls the left out left. People who are on the left, but they feel left out from both the Democratic party apparatus and the progressive insurgency. But, yeah, I did write a piece about how Stephen Colbert kind of represents the detachment of establishment liberalism. There was this really strange effort to transform him into a national political hero, almost a

00:37:22 Andrew Keen: martyr almost. So he's what happened to him? Yeah.

00:37:25 David Masciotra: A quasi religious figure. And yet at the same time, his ratings were in free fall, and fewer and fewer people cared about anything that he had to say. So I guess what I'm trying to advocate, as boring and as simple as it sounds, is to confront and engage with reality. I mean, so many people, their entire conception of politics is social media and what we're doing right now to get to become a little self deprecating is, you know, looking and talking to screens. But you have to get back to the very old fashioned boots on the ground, you know, talking to people, meeting with people. What's the

00:38:15 Andrew Keen: is the Jesse Jackson version of politics.

00:38:17 David Masciotra: Exactly. I don't wanna be a broken record and act as if everything goes back to Jesse Jackson because I wrote a book on him. But that form of politics, which Obama knew very well too. Obama became something different once he became president as would happen to anyone, but Obama applied a community organizer's tactic to political campaigns, especially that first one, and the results speak for themselves. You know, everybody ridicules and rips on Bill Clinton, but Bill Clinton found a way to carve out territory between what was then the Reagan Democrats, Democrats who had voted for Reagan and for the elder Bush, and the Democratic base, which was black voters and Latino voters and working class women voters and even educated women voters. So oftentimes the key to successful politics is staking out that territory that appeals to someone like me, the left out left, people who feel that, those with the biggest microphones and megaphones aren't speaking for them.

00:39:47 Andrew Keen: And Well, you're you're I mean, you're part of the liberal left, David. I mean, that's my term. I wonder whether when we look back at 2026 in historical terms in a few years, it might seem more of a Gramscian interregnum waiting for Godot, so to speak, in the sense that you mentioned Obama and Clinton who came along and said stuff, and then all that stuff seemed inevitable. But we haven't really seen that. We've seen the Platner stuff, which I think, at the moment, is headlines, but people will quickly forget. What we're missing, I did a show, with, Tad Devine, who's the was the, the manager of the Bernie Sanders twenty sixteen campaign, and he talks about he has a new book about how the Democrats screwed Bernie, which I think he's right on. Bernie came along. Maybe he's not relevant in 2026, certainly not in 2028. But he said stuff that now seems obvious. Some of it's controversial. Some of it seems self evident. Some has even been incorporated into the Democratic establishment. But we're still waiting for that. We're still waiting for the next Sanders or Clinton or Obama. Maybe it's Ossoff in Georgia. Conceivably, I guess, it's Newsom in California, although I somehow doubt it. Mhmm. There's somewhere there's someone somewhere who will package all this stuff up and capture the imagination of liberal leftists like yourself as well as, hopefully, the white American working class as both Clinton and Obama did.

00:41:31 David Masciotra: Yeah. And I also think that, what Clinton and Obama did was they spoke about issues that were very impactful in people's lives but were not part of the discourse or they spoke about the old issues in new ways. I'll give you an example, I mean you've put me on the spot, but something I've thought about for a long time. Millions and millions of Americans, especially those in my generation, I'm a millennial, and those, in the younger generation are self employed or they combine traditional work with freelance work. The percentages on this are staggering, and yet we're caught between two nostalgic presentations of politics and economics. We're we still hear talk about bringing back manufacturing or we talk we hear talk about, you know, emboldening the labor unions. And, we hear talk about enlarging the social welfare state. And some of these things are very, wise and would be very beneficial, others not. But it doesn't appeal to someone who's caught in this shifting economy. So what I would like to see for example, and I think it would appeal to many people, at least in my generation and younger people, is someone come out with something like a self employment manifesto. You know, how do we confront the realities of the gig economy without

00:43:20 Andrew Keen: The precariat of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your fifth job.

00:43:25 David Masciotra: Yeah. Exactly. You have nothing to lose but your next, you know, freelance invoice.

00:43:32 Andrew Keen: Your next gig.

00:43:33 David Masciotra: Right. I think that would, you know, wake some people up because, for example, when the Republicans eliminated the subsidies for the Affordable Care Act, it was devastating to millions of people, and millions of people are losing their healthcare coverage. But almost never in the debate did you hear about the millions of people who obtained their health insurance through the Obamacare exchange, not because they're unemployed or even because they're what we would call poor, but because they don't have a job that provides them with traditional benefits because they're piecing together several sources of income. So that's just one example and this is just off the top of my head on how we need, political leaders who instead of falling into the old framework of, cutting regulation to stimulate job growth, or, constructing new heavily funded social programs, can meet the conditions of people as they experience them now. Self employment is a condition that in which millions and millions of Americans live, that number will only increase and yet, no prominent figure in the Democratic party or the Republican party talks about it.

00:45:12 Andrew Keen: Yeah. It's a really good point, David. It's a good point to end on. I know you're also concerned with this sharp turn of most Americans against AI, and perhaps the opportunity would be for the next Clinton or Obama to actually somehow incorporate the potential of AI for the dominant, precariat class that you've observed. As you know, most people have more than one job. Most people fear AI, but at the same time, most people recognize that it also offers them, the opportunity for perhaps more leisure time or perhaps more power in their work. So when it comes to something like AI, do you think this offers an opportunity for the left, in particular, for the liberal left that you're representing on this show to actually be a little bit more optimistic?

00:46:08 David Masciotra: Yeah. I do. I think that in the immediate future, a democratic party leader looking to build a national profile is going to have to come out in opposition of the way in which data centers are being constructed. This is this these data centers have bipartisan opposition. They're environmentally unsound. There it's it

00:46:35 Andrew Keen: But they provide, I mean, in defense of the data center you say data centers, I say data centers. In defense of them, they do provide work, jobs, some of them full time for people who otherwise wouldn't have full time work.

00:46:50 David Masciotra: Yes. But it's a it's a big quality of life issue, and, the way that it's happening in community and community across the country. Erin Brockovich, the old the hero of, the film. Yeah.

00:47:03 Andrew Keen: She's she's actually she was on the show a few years ago. She's quite a character.

00:47:08 David Masciotra: Yeah. She documents this very well on her Substack that they're often done in secret deals. They don't involve community input, so it's circumventing the democratic process. And governor Pritzker of Illinois, for example, has taken a very hard line against data centers, and he's going to run for president. So I think that's a wise move on his part, and I think it's the correct move. But longer term, there are many reasons to worry about AI and lament its growth. But I do agree with you that there's an opportunity for a leader with a little bit of an imagination to discuss how we could harness its power in order to use it as an effective tool to improve standards of living and to enhance quality of life rather than, you know, just devastate the arts and channel increasingly large sums of money to, Silicon Valley moguls. No. There is an opportunity, with, like I said, a little imagination, a little clever legislation to harness it harness its power on behalf of small business owners, on behalf of creative entrepreneurs, on behalf of students and schools. And yet again, we're waiting for the emergence of that leader with that language and it hasn't happened yet.

00:48:49 Andrew Keen: Well, there you have it. A happy half year, David. Borrowing from Hegel, maybe we're not really able to see the year yet until it ends in terms of historical overview. But, certainly, it's been an interesting six months, probably more questions than answers. And by the end of the year, by, by December 2026, I think we'll have some more answers. David Masciotra, old, old friend of the show. I'm sure you'll be on the show before December 2026. But we'll get you back on the show, and we can revisit all these themes and see whether anyone's come up with the answer, especially on the left liberal wing of the Democratic Party. So thank you so much.

00:49:30 David Masciotra: Thank you. I enjoyed it as always.