A Nation of Strangers: Ece Temelkuran on Rebuilding Home in a Homeless World

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It's Monday, 05/11/2026. Last January or eighteen months ago, I had my old friend Ece Temelkuran on the show, one of the leading writers in the world, nonfiction writers on our current political state. She told me back then, she's been on the show several times, why she still retains future faith in the future. Ece's new book, Nation of Strangers, Rebuilding Home in the twenty first Century, has been shortlisted for the Women's Prize for Nonfiction. And, as usual, Ece is joining us from her current home in Berlin. Ece, nice to see you after eighteen months.

00:01:21 Ece Temelkuran: Nice to see you too, Andrew.

00:01:24 Andrew Keen: Are you still retaining faith in the future as we discussed last time?

00:01:32 Ece Temelkuran: It's a stance, so I cannot change it. It doesn't, it doesn't change by daily occurrences, so to speak. I made a decision to have faith in humanity and in the future, so I'm keeping it.

00:01:47 Andrew Keen: So it's, like Martin Luther, here I stand, I can do no other?

00:01:52 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. I mean, like, like any other belief system, it's a belief. And, you know, you can even when you're religious, when you believe in god, you can even doubt yourself, but then the same goes for, having faith in future and humanity. Sometimes you have doubts for obvious reasons, but then you make yourself believe in it again and again. And, also, there are people who refresh my faith constantly, who are resisting, who are staying human while surviving.

00:02:30 Andrew Keen: A lot of people will remember you for your book, How to Lose a Country, that came out in 2019. I think that's how we first met. You're always one step ahead of everybody else maybe more than one step. Tell me about Nation of Strangers: Rebuilding Home in the Twenty-First Century. You and I have talked over the years many times about the role of love and home in politics. Why, this book now?

00:02:57 Ece Temelkuran: Actually, for the first time, I don't feel like I'm a step ahead. I feel like we're all on the same page now. Right after the book was published, only one week after the publication date, Minneapolis happened in the United States, and I think it was a very good example of what Nation of Strangers could look like when people resisted against ICE, when people held on to each other. They built a Nation of Strangers, I think. You know, How to Lose a Country was the diagnosis, and then I wrote Together, a manifesto against the heartless world, which was the solution, so to speak. And Nation of Strangers is a bit like resolution. I think now we are all feeling a little bit strange like strangers in this world in these times. We're losing home on so many different levels. We're losing it physically. There are all these, you know, immigrants, refugees. We're constantly talking about the crisis, you know, that comes with them. And we're losing home, politically because there is this anger in us. We do not like how things are going in several places in the world, and we cannot, feel that we are properly represented by a political party, then that makes us homeless. And we are also feeling morally homeless because we are seeing the cruelty of our times, and there is no institution we can turn to make it stop. And, also, after AI, I think we're losing homes spiritually because language, our spiritual home, is taken away from us. We're now we have to share it with an unhuman entity. So on so many levels, I think we're becoming homeless, and that's why I think human condition is unhomed. And my story, having left my country in 2016, is a blueprint, I think, for many people, who right now cannot recognize their countries due to the political developments and who feel like they are already strangers in their own country.

00:05:10 Andrew Keen: Yeah. You, you left your home country, which is, of course, Turkey in 2016. The book's been described as your most personal work. Yeah. How well do you know yourself, Ece? Is this narrative an attempt to understand yourself? Are you using yourself as a model for other strangers in terms of building this nation Nation of Strangers? Did you have to struggle to write so personally? I mean, you always write with a degree of, personalization. You're certainly you don't distance yourself from your stories, from your writing. But, was this an attempt to take your own story and universalize it?

00:05:52 Ece Temelkuran: Yes. It was. Actually, you know, after I left the country, I this, you know, name, this brand, as if stuck to my name, exile, and I constantly rejected the term. And I also rejected myself as well because I wanted to write the story of fascism. I wanted to clear the air because I think confusion is one of the tools of today's fascism. I wanted to tell the western countries that it's coming towards you, and this is how it's going to happen. I was expected to tell my victim story, so to speak, whereas I did something, almost the opposite. I told your story to you, and then I wrote together. And I really, really believe that I shouldn't be talking about myself at all, because as a woman, as an intellectual telling about yourself in such a situation, under such conditions, somehow automatically turns you into a victim, and I didn't want that. But then after seven years, in 2022 or 2023, I realized that, the world is becoming homeless in a way. We're losing the idea of home on several different levels as I mentioned before. So my story became tellable, and because it intersected with the story of the masses, I think. And I wanted to tell to the world that my story or stories of people like me, refugees, immigrants, exiles, these are the pioneer stories of the pioneers of history because soon you're going to need the wisdom that they are carrying, the wisdom of survival, the wisdom of surviving with dignity, remaking home from scratch, and so on. So I think when I was convinced that my story makes sense, to many, many people now, that's when I began writing it. And it was a struggle. It was a struggle because I grew up in a leftist family. You're not supposed to talk about yourself. You have to talk about the self.

00:08:03 Andrew Keen: You've talked to me, and you've written extensively, especially about your grandmother, I think.

00:08:08 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, yeah.

00:08:09 Andrew Keen: You've been described as a ruthless Cassandra, which amused me because my wife's called Cassandra, so maybe all Cassandra

00:08:16 Ece Temelkuran: Really? Oh, lovely name.

00:08:18 Andrew Keen: Is that fair given your Cassandra-like role in warning people about the future? Do you feel like a ruthless Cassandra?

00:08:28 Ece Temelkuran: Ruthless? I wouldn't say, but, yeah, they they you know, life somehow, what I've written, and Europeans gave me that name. It somehow mystifies the situation, I think, whereas How to Lose a Country was a cold blooded analysis of what's happening in the world, and it was laying I laid down the seven global patterns of rising fascism. So it wasn't a prediction, so to speak, like, you know, fortune telling or anything. It was there was analysis, in that book. But still, people, I think, want to call me Cassandra. And I don't hate the you know, this name or this idea. I'm using it half jokingly as well myself. So yeah.

00:09:21 Andrew Keen: You you write about the bleak future, and yet you're in a way optimistic. Some people might say, Ece, well, maybe things politically aren't bad. You wrote about How to Lose a Country in 2019, but earlier this year, Orban was defeated in Hungary. Erdogan in Turkey always seems on the verge of defeat, never seems to be quite defeated. Donald Trump seems to be on his way out. Is that wrong?

00:09:49 Ece Temelkuran: It is wrong. I mean, like, since the very beginning, I've been telling this since 2016, actually. Don't think that getting rid of these leaders or these political figures will fix everything. There is this almost illusion, an illusion, I would say. People want to think that if we can get rid of these leaders, then everything will be back to usual. No. It won't. This is a structural issue, and the reasons of loss of democracy, is very deeply rooted, in the system we're living in, political and economic system. But about optimism, I'm not an optimist or a pessimist, for that matter. Nation of Strangers is a joyful book. It's not a happy book, obviously. But, yeah, I'm just telling people that we're in survival mode now, so and we can survive together. That's not optimism, I wouldn't say. That's more like following my words. I'm believing in people, and I'm calling people to believe in themselves and in each other. A Nation of Strangers is a long letter to the other strangers of the world about how we can do it and in with in which language, so to speak.

00:11:06 Andrew Keen: Is there an element of nostalgia for you personally in the book? You've often talked to me about the Arab Spring and the euphoric quality of your experience there. You were in several squares in that period. Is it in a way an attempt to return to that Nation of Strangers in those squares in North Africa?

00:11:31 Ece Temelkuran: No. It's not. Well, I wouldn't mind another Arab Spring, but it's not. I mean, like, it is more like how to survive this life on a on daily basis even, morally and politically, and how people will be the only security web, for all of us when no institution is strong enough to depend on, when fascism takes over or when it spreads around. There is this idea still in western countries that the institutions, especially judiciary institutions, can protect them from anything. But I do think that people should get prepared for a more bleak future. And but then I also say that we can do it, and we will, we will do it together. But then I have to tell you something. This book, Nation of Strangers, unlike How to Lose a Country, is a more, intimate, book, and it's a more it's more about emotions, I think. I do think that emotions have political consequences, especially today in the world when fascism, uses politics of emotions so masterfully. But this book, Nation of Strangers, is not a political manifesto or a political analysis. It is more like offering or proposing a state of being. I wanted to tell people that let's drop the act. We are in a really, really horrible situation, but there's also the joy, of being in this massive trouble together. So how can we stay human, and how can we resist in these times? It's the intimate answer to these questions. It is in that sense, yes, it's a political book, of course, but not like it doesn't, you know, concern itself with realpolitik. It's a more philosophical, a more literary book, I think.

00:13:41 Andrew Keen: Speaking as a philosophical political book, Yanis Varoufakis, who's a friend of yours, I know he's been on the show a couple of times. He says in terms of Nation of Strangers that you're in serious danger of becoming the new Hannah Arendt. I'm not sure whether that's a compliment or a punishment. But,

00:14:00 Ece Temelkuran: Both, I think.

00:14:02 Andrew Keen: Is there an Arendtian quality to this book about exile and resistance? Who else is what other political thinkers have influenced you or maybe none at all?

00:14:14 Ece Temelkuran: When I left the country in 2016 when I went to Zagreb and decided that I'm going to write in English from now on overnight, I felt quite lonely. And that was the time I started turning into those people who went through this sim went through similar experiences. And one of them was, of course, Hannah Arendt, who's been an influence on me since young my young years younger years. So, yeah, I read her, you know, proper books as well, but I also wanted to read her, you know, diaries, you know, thought books as she calls them, her letters and everything, her biography, because I wanted to know how she dealt what I had to deal with, this loneliness, this disorientation, loss of home. It is so interesting. Not many people talk about this, but, you know, when you lose home, when you lose your country, you know, your sense of place, your sense of time, are damaged. It's a quite a strange process. So I wanted to find a person in history who has been smarter than me, who's been tougher than me. You know? And it's a big question of dignity become you know, your life becomes a big question of dignity when you leave your country. That's why I wanted to I read many of these people, especially those German intellectuals who had to leave German Jewish intellectuals who had to leave, Germany. Walter Benjamin, Adorno, you know, Hannah Arendt, and so on. It was more like a I was I was trying to find a self help book among these, you know, work that I read from them. So Hannah Arendt, on so many levels, she's a big influence on me. She's she knows how to remake home over and over again, which is an exhausting thing, especially in later years in life. And, of course, I thought he was joking when he said this blurb, but yeah, then we put it there. Hopefully, my ending will be better than hers.

00:16:39 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Well, Hannah didn't have such a bad ending.

00:16:42 Ece Temelkuran: She died young. That's one of my fears. I will not die before I die.

00:16:48 Andrew Keen: I mean, you talk about Walter Benjamin, of course, who took his own life. In contrast, and when Arendt came to America, I think she only had one bag, and in that bag was Benjamin's, manuscript. She was bringing them over. So there's quite a difference. One of the things that reminds me of Arendt in Nation of Strangers, and in all your work, is the importance of friendship, in terms of rebuilding community. Arendt made friendship so central both politically and emotionally. What's the role of friendship in Nation of Strangers, Ece?

00:17:26 Ece Temelkuran: This is why I think, our experiences are similar because friendships are central to this book. And also in together, there was a big chapter about friendship.

00:17:37 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Politically about that.

00:17:39 Ece Temelkuran: Politically, philosophically, of course, it's important. But once you leave the country, you understand that you literally survive through friendships. Your practical life actually, depends on friendships, not only your emotional and mental health. So it is important. And that is why Nation of Strangers, in the very end, says that home will be made of people. It will no longer be a place, but it will be made of promises, words, and it will be made of friends friendships. I do think that friendships are the attempts genuine attempts to ultimate justice between people. They are chosen relationships that we build, and every friendship is an attempt to intimacy, generosity, kindness, and so on. So I see every friendship as an attempt to better humanity. And, also, as I said, like, you know, when you lose someone, you're on your own, you literally live on the kindness of others as Dante once said in his long, work on exile. So then, you know, friendships is, you know, become central you to your life. And I think it will become more central to many other people's life. I was giving a speech in Germany, in Berlin, and somebody asked, like, so what should we do against fascism and so on? And I said, take care of your friends because in the end, your life will depend on them. It is not easy for Western countries to imagine this, but then, literally, there comes a time when, you know, freedom of speech, when your individual freedoms are under threat, you depend on your friends, you know, to stay at their home, to defend you, to support you, to be there for you. So, yeah, we that's why friendships will be crucial, more and more crucial in the world, especially for people like us, I think.

00:19:56 Andrew Keen: Ece, you and I have talked about this before. I wonder if you've changed your mind or not. I think in the past, you've said to me that you don't think it's possible to make friends with people of the opposite political views in the other political camp. Is that fair? Do you still take that position? I wouldn't say friendship. I'm not saying that you say that friendship is always political, but can one be intimate with people whose politics are entirely foreign to one? In America, as you know, there's a movements from groups like Braver Angels that suggest that we can drop all our politics and we can all be friends. Is that realistic, accurate, attractive?

00:20:42 Ece Temelkuran: I mean, like, this wheel, I think, has become very popular. Like, politics is something else. It's not about us. Politics is outside the topic. And that idea, has become very popular after end of nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties. And that approach to politics and to friendships, come from this motto of, you know, if there is capitalism, there'll be freedom of speech. And when there is capitalism, there won't be wars. It will be all prosperity, and we don't need antagonism because there is free market economy. There is freedom of speech, so everybody will be fine. That, you know, very dated, very long gone idea do not does not recognize the fact that politics come from morality. You just don't you know, it's not a open buffet of political thoughts, and then you pick pick and choose one. It can it is very intertwined with your moral stance as well in life, who you about who it's very connected to who you are and what kind of a person you are. So if, let's say, if someone says that, you know, people in Gaza, children in Gaza should have died, I cannot be friends with them. That's a political choice that but also it's a moral choice. So the disconnection between politics and morality, which is a very common, very much, quite popular, problem, may might may make people think that, oh, politics is something that we can leave aside. Like, put it in the cupboard, and then we can no. Who you are is very much everything is political, of course. We know that. But, also, it is it has ties to your moral choices, your moral values.

00:22:42 Andrew Keen: And you're I assume, or at least in your mind, you're in the good political camp and the people you don't agree with are in the bad political camp, or is that too simplistic?

00:22:53 Ece Temelkuran: That is too simplistic. That is too simplistic, but, of course, you know, I'd like to think that I am better than fascists. What can I say?

00:23:05 Andrew Keen: Do and, you know, I'm I'm not suggesting we invite any fascists on the show, but if if we had them on, I'm not sure they would call themselves fascists, conservatives, populists of one kind or another. They might put their own moral argument forward. Do they believe in these moral arguments, or is it just the guise for self enrichment or cruelty or some other

00:23:27 Ece Temelkuran: Honestly, I am past that point, like, personally. I am past that point to talk to be in a debate, with an opposite side and so on. I have done those things in Turkey for years and years, and then I wrote How to Lose a Country. I did it again and again. But now I am thinking, or living differently, so to speak. And Nation of Strangers is also recognizing the fact that those, you know, conservative, fascist, right wing, far right parties, are utilizing the fear of loss of home. You know? How did all these political leaders come to be? Most of them almost all of them utilized the fear of people, and, you know, it was the fear of loss of home. They they thought that many people thought that they're going to lose their home to refugees, strangers, foreigners, and so on. So they utilize and weaponize this fear. So I'm asking the question, Nation of Strangers. Can we talk about this fear? Because that fear, at least some of it, is real. People can be afraid of losing their homes to foreigners. It is not acceptable perhaps, but it is absolutely understandable. So can we talk about that fear? Not to agree with them, but I'm trying to change the change the conversation, change the narrative. Because what we are going through globally, far right, etcetera, mostly stands upon the otherization of the stranger and dehumanization of the foreigner, refugee, immigrant, whatever. So instead of talking immigration crisis or refugee crisis, can we talk about redefining home? What is home now for Americans, for Europeans? What is home? Because not only because of refugee or immigration crisis, but because of climate crisis, The space is diminishing. So we eventually will have to redefine home. So can we do that? That's that's the question I'm trying to bring, you know, yeah, bring, to the table with Nation of Strangers.

00:25:59 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I at the beginning, I said you're always a bit ahead of everybody else. You seem to be in a way suggesting in this new book, Ece, that everyone, whether they like it or not, is an exile. So in that sense, you, again, are a pioneering. You're literally an exile. We met in Zagreb a few years ago when you were living there, when we made our how to fix democracy film. You're currently living in Berlin. Of course, you're originally from Istanbul. Is exile then the fate of all of us, not just Hannah Arendt and Ece Temelkuran?

00:26:36 Ece Temelkuran: Here's a interesting story. I've been giving speeches all around Europe after the book was published in several languages, in Italy, in Barcelona, in Amsterdam, and one more place, I don't remember now, in Europe. I in every speech, one person from the audience stood up and said that I'm a, you know, I'm an American citizen in exile in Barcelona, in Amsterdam. I self exiled myself. And I thought, wow. This is new. You know, there was McCarthy era. There was there were, you know, expats, self exiles of that time. There are several American writers who had to leave America to feel free, and safe.

00:27:28 Andrew Keen: But a whole generation of African American writers

00:27:32 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. Exactly. That's what I'm thinking. But now these are, like, middle class, well educated, very white Americans leaving America. So here you go. I don't think I'm ahead. I am just saying you know, calling the spade a spade right when it's happening. So Americans are not feeling at home, which is, I think, for many, many people, for a certain class and certain race of people, it's the first time, I guess.

00:28:06 Andrew Keen: Yeah. It's ironic. You're a you're a critic of globalization, of course, in economic terms. You've written extensively on the problems with the neoliberal model. Mhmm. So home and globalization or globalization itself is, in your broader argument, is undermining the idea of home. Is are you sometimes in this argument sailing a bit close to your nationalist foes who are themselves opposed to globalization?

00:28:38 Ece Temelkuran: No. But, like, for years, we've been talking about fall of nation states, nation states disintegrating, being swallowed up by globalization and so on. But, you know, we don't really talk about the impact on individuals, and we don't really reimagine nations, do we? We still are not there. Like, mentally, we're not there. So I also you know, Nation of Strangers can be read like that. Like, what if this is a new nation? What if we can, you know, imagine new nations, but it's a bit pushing too far? But, of course, it has a connection, with nation states, failing people. Yeah. I think I'm imagining home with people made of people. So that is the exact opposite of those people who imagine home as a place, and as something to be made great again. That is the exact opposite. You know, I think that's why I'm thinking that humanity is feeling unhomed because many, many, many people cannot accept the fact that life is here and now. They want to go back to something, this these greater times. Whereas life is here and now, And they are behaving like those immigrants and refugees who always want to go back home, so they cannot build their life here and now in the new country, in the new land. So I'm also calling, you know, everybody to accept that life is here and now. There's no other life. There's no other reality, which is the hardest thing to do for a refugee immigrant exile. It's not easy to do that, but this is the big decision that humanity should take should make, I think. And this and not making this this decision stops us from, being you know, disables us in on so many levels. That's why we cannot really deal with climate crisis. That's why we cannot really deal with, you know, rising fascism, because we cannot imagine anything because we cannot, you know, accept that we are here and now. There's no other life.

00:31:09 Andrew Keen: You're very outspoken on Palestine and Gaza. But beyond that, is given your arguments about exile and its permanence and this being the central question of our age, does that make the Palestine, Gaza, Israel issue more than just one more injustice and the theme of our current predicament?

00:31:36 Ece Temelkuran: Gaza, I think, was the ultimate test to see how much humanity can swallow. And we swallowed very good, I think. Well, many of us, we raised our voices, but still, it continued to happen. I see an arc, to be honest, like, from the beginning of the two thousands when Colin Powell dangled that, you know, tube with colorful fluid in it in the UN Security Council and said that we're going to, you know, bombard Iraq. And there was an anti-war coalition all around the world, and people were on the streets. I don't know if you remember. I was one of the spokespersons in Turkey. It was a massive mobilization. And from then on, I think when people were not heard and it was rubbed on their faces, like, you know, we're going to, you know, continue this war even though the entire planet does not want it, they lost their faith in themselves, in politics, in international organizations, and so on. And then on, I think, Gaza, you know, there was again, there is a there was a massive international mobilization. But somehow, many people think that we cannot stop it anyway. What is more interesting to me or more devastating, Gaza showed me how this, move on, let's move on ideology is so present and so normalized. Gaza was incredibly devastating. But what was more devastating was Jared Kushner coming up with this PowerPoint presentation in Davos and saying that we are going to build this, you know, seaside resort in Gaza. That was the lowest of the low. And that I thought was, this is what neoliberal morality is. Move on. You know? Move on. So in that sense, Gaza was a test, like, you know, how many how much, the planet can swallow, and we swallowed an embarrassing amount, I think.

00:34:00 Andrew Keen: When it comes to, Nation of Strangers, you've written not not you, but if someone had written this book ten, fifteen years ago, they might have been talking about the Internet rebuilding home in the twenty first century, replacing the analog with the digital. What's the role? I mean, many, many books, Ece, as you know, and you've written about the Internet as well. Many books have been written about the corrosive quality of social media. You've got a massive following still on X. You're quite prominent on social media. Is there a role for the Internet, for the digital in rebuilding home in the twenty first century, or is that really an analog task?

00:34:52 Ece Temelkuran: Well, I mean, like, when, Twitter was bought by Elon Musk, I don't know if you remember, but this you know, there were many people going to, what, Mastodon, Bluesky, this and that, and they were acting like refugees.

00:35:11 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

00:35:12 Ece Temelkuran: They were digital refugees. They were, you know, you know, going on Bluesky, but also looking at Twitter. Like, you know, it's like looking back home. So and it was surprising to me, by the way, since we're talking about this, that I don't I don't see anyone trying to organize to own, not, you know, financially, but, I don't know, digitally, own the space, occupy the space. They didn't think of occupying Twitter. Or maybe some people did. I missed it. But, yeah, we could have said this is ours. This is not yours, Elon. And we could have done something, but I think our political imagination is has become quite limited lately. And so many things are happening, and I understand that. So digital, life can also make you a refugee, and it is a real thing. I'm not joking about this when I say that we become digital refugees. It's not easy. I'm not even looking at X anymore, although I still have more than 2,000,000 followers because it's not my I don't feel at home there anymore. So I'm a digital refugee in on Instagram, on Bluesky, whatever. Yeah. And it's you know, people build these things, and you build a persona or whatever. You build yourself there digitally, and it's taken away from you. This is how being unhomed feels like suddenly.

00:36:47 Andrew Keen: The book is out this week in The US. I think it's getting distributed from Canada by Simon and Schuster. As I said, it's already been shortlisted for the extremely prestigious 2026 Women's Prize for Nonfiction. You're with other very famous writers, Lyse Doucet, of course, the BBC, Arundhati Roy, another very famous writer. What's the gendered quality here, Ece? Is this a book by a woman for women?

00:37:19 Ece Temelkuran: No. But I have to tell you that women have been strangers since the beginning of time. We we're not allowed to feel at home in this world unless we are functions. Mother, daughter, you know, lover, this and that, wife. So I think women have that wisdom of, you know, living, surviving in a world where they do not feel at home, where they have to make and remake home for themselves. And in the book, there's also the story of Filipino caregivers and how they exercise this, sort of friendship that they home each other, in a way. So I think women have that wisdom. We always feel responsible for each other, for each other to feel at home in this world. So we know a lot about the topic. The world can learn from women about that, about making, homes from people.

00:38:32 Andrew Keen: Finally, let's end. My favorite story that you tell is that walk up to the Acropolis, the the, the onion story. In fact, some of my friends call you the onion lady because of that story, in the how to fix, the democracy movie. Remind us of that story, that Acropolis story of, onions and democracy and freedom and what that means in 2026.

00:38:57 Ece Temelkuran: Stories from How to Lose a Country. And my editor, Greek editor, I was having a salad, and I was in the middle of interviews, and I was eating onion and for How to Lose a Country, these interviews. And I said, oh my god. I ate onion. And she said, what's the problem? Democracy is very much about onions. And then he told me about Acropolis and all these, you know, frescoes or, you know, people going to Acropolis to build the democracy, and they are carrying bread and onion. So if you want to save democracy, you have to know that you're going to be the foot soldier of life. It's not an elite job, to save democracy. You have to get your hands dirty. You have to be on the streets. You have to be with people, and you have to, like, smell of onion.

00:39:50 Andrew Keen: In other words, when, in a Nation of Strangers, if if you can smell onions on somebody else's breath, they're probably your friend. Is that right?

00:39:59 Ece Temelkuran: Well, I wouldn't take it that far. Nation of Strangers is another mood. It's a more poetic book, so there's nothing oniony about that.

00:40:08 Andrew Keen: Well, the book's out. It's out this week. It's already out. It's a big hit in Europe. Shortlisted, as I said, for the 2026 Women's Prize for Nonfiction. As always, Ece, talking to us from, your current exile in Berlin. There'll probably be other exiles. Lovely to talk to you, and congratulations on the book

00:40:27 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you, Andrew. Thank you so much for having me.

00:40:30 Andrew Keen: And best of luck with the, the North American launch this week.

00:40:33 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you so much. Thank you.