A $14 Billion Glitter Glue Gospel: Michael Blanding on the Wealthiest Christian Nationalist Family You've Never Heard Of

00:00:31 Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. We've done lots of shows about the threat of Christian nationalism. Some people even suggest it's somehow un American, a threat to democracy, certainly challenging many of the liberal principles of modernity, but we haven't actually drilled down and talked a little bit more specifically about a family or a business or a group of people, who reflect this kind of evangelical fundamentalism. Today, we are doing exactly that with Michael Blanding, an old friend of the show. He was back on in 2022, talking about whether or not Shakespeare was a forger. This time, he's looking very differently at, Hobby Lobby. His new book is The Gospel According to Hobby Lobby, and it's a book about the Greens, David Green in particular, the founding entrepreneur of Hobby Lobby, and what exactly they're doing and their impact perhaps on American civil life and democracy. David is joining us from Boston. David, Michael. That was that Michael, that was terrible to—to call you David Green. Michael, Michael Blanding is joining us from Boston. The book is just that. Got a rave review in the New York Times. Congratulations, Michael. Is that a fair introduction? Should we be thinking about Hobby Lobby and the Greens as somehow a threat to everything that America or liberal America at least cherish? Is that is that why you have written this book?

00:02:12 Michael Blanding: I think that's fair. I think that's one interpretation. I don't come quite down as, judgmentally. I sort of let the reader decide, how they feel about the family. But the way I put it is that it's the most influential family that you've never heard of, in terms of American politics and culture. And, as you say, they're an evangelical, Pentecostal fundamentalist family that has gotten hugely wealthy, sort of, you know, accidentally through this, business they run called Hobby Lobby, which is this craft store business. And, they've chosen to use that money not on, jets or yachts or fancy, you know, mansions, but by contributing it to these, religious causes, and they've, been very successful in that regard.

00:03:01 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I mean, if they were on the left and they were contributing to liberal causes of one kind or another, we might be admiring them. Before we get to that, before we try to be judgmental, or at least I encourage you to be judgmental, Michael, tell us about Hobby Lobby. I know that the Greens are worth many billions of dollars. I, like many of our viewers and listeners, certainly wasn't familiar with the Greens or with Hobby Lobby itself. Tell me about them and how these Green families become so wealthy.

00:03:33 Michael Blanding: Yeah. Hobby Lobby, it's a, huge company in the United States. It's an $8 billion business. The Greens themselves are worth $14 billion last time I checked. They're some of the richest people in America. And, they got rich by selling crafts by, you know, glitter glue and popsicle sticks, you know, to start beads and fabric and that sort of thing. And, you know, they sort of stumbled upon this business in the seventies that, it's kind of the perfect recession proof business because when times are good, people are buying crafts, and when times are bad, people are tightening their belts and, you know, making things rather than buying them. So, just little by little, they just accumulated this vast wealth. And you see these stores, there's about a thousand of them now. They're all over America, these big, big box, craft stores called Hobby Lobby.

00:04:22 Andrew Keen: We shouldn't admire them. So they stumbled upon the business. I mean, in Silicon Valley, we would describe it quite differently, and business schools would describe it quite differently. Shouldn't we at least credit the Greens and David Green in particular? We to borrow some language from your stumbling upon a very lucrative business. Most startup entrepreneurs fail, and very few of them—

00:04:44 Michael Blanding: True.

00:04:46 Andrew Keen: —turn out to be billionaires. So clearly, they're doing something right, these people.

00:04:50 Michael Blanding: Yeah. No. They're good business people. They're savvy in terms of the, way that they spread across the country. Of course, the Green family themselves would say that they have been chosen by God and anointed by God and that, they don't bear any responsibility for their wealth, that this is all just, you know, the Lord's doing. And, according to The Greens, they run their business according to biblical principles. They don't carry any debt. They, you know, pride themselves on the way they treat their employees and their, fair dealing with suppliers. And, you know, some might call into question some of their principles, but, according to them anyway, they run their business according to, you know, Christian, law.

00:05:32 Andrew Keen: Again, it strikes me in some ways as rather admirable. Brings to mind Max Weber's book about, the origins of capitalism lying in a maybe not evangelical Puritanism, but certainly the American Puritan tradition. What it brings to mind, Walgreens. We've done lots of shows on Walgreens. Are there similarities between Hobby Lobby and Walgreens?

00:05:55 Michael Blanding: Yeah. Or Walmart, you know—

00:05:57 Andrew Keen: Sorry. Well, I meant Walmart.

00:05:59 Michael Blanding: Yeah. Yeah. No. There's actually a lot of similarities because David Green actually got his start with a chain of department stores called TG&Y back in the 1960s and seventies. And, they sort of predated Walmart, but they really kind of prefigured this idea of the department store that would sell a little bit of everything. When David was working there, he sort of saw a lot of waste and inefficiency, felt like they were trying to do too many things for too many people, and, that's how he got the idea to start this craft store. And they started, just making these little picture frames in his garage, and, and then gradually, they bought a little storefront in Oklahoma City and started acquiring more and more items. And, ironically enough, it was, during the seventies when, you know, the beatniks were buying their beads and, you know, making bead jewelry that really the company took off. So, David actually credits, you know, the hippies with, the start of his business. But from there, it was just off to the races. And every new kind of craft trend, whether it was, you know, macrame or, scrapbooking, you know, they've been able to take advantage of and, grow and, you know, go into one state after another.

00:07:10 Andrew Keen: And maybe macramé should credit Haight-Ashbury just down the road, just down the street from where I live with the success of their business.

00:07:19 Michael Blanding: Exactly.

00:07:20 Andrew Keen: David, you claim not to be judgmental, but you know as well as I do that this book is rooted in one kind of judgmentalism or another. And the kind of people who are gonna buy this book are people who probably are very suspicious of evangelical Christianity. So what did your research tell us about how these people run their business? I wanna get to the biblical side of stuff and it's—

00:07:42 Michael Blanding: Yeah. Sure. Sure.

00:07:43 Andrew Keen: Are they credible? I mean, do they say one thing and behave in another way, or is it when it comes down to it, maybe in some ways like Walmart, a reasonably decent place to work, certainly compared to new digital businesses like Amazon or Uber?

00:08:00 Michael Blanding: Yeah. I think in terms of the way they run the business themselves, they, they can be credited. You know, they're, whatever else the Greens are, they're not hypocrites. They are true believers. They believe that we are all going to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, and they have tried to live their life according to these, you know, fundamentalist biblical precepts. So I will give them credit for that. Like I say, they don't spend lavishly. David Green still flies coach and, you know, lives in a relatively modest house in Oklahoma. And, they pride themselves on offering far above the minimum wage, and, you know, taking care of their employees. Now that was really put to the test during COVID when, they sort of, you know, like many, conservatives and business people, were, very against the mask mandate. They made their employees work, you know, in these warehouses at, you know, 100 degree heat without masks, and, you know, many of them got sick. And, David Green's wife sort of had this vision from God, but they needed to keep the company open. So you can certainly find, things to criticize in terms of—

00:09:10 Andrew Keen: Well, you're the authority. Are you suggesting they have blood on their hands?

00:09:14 Michael Blanding: In terms of the, COVID, I mean, yeah. I mean, certainly, people will say that they really pushed their employees and, you know, were, you know, engaging in these really, you know, business practices that were not in the best interest of the people that, work there. I mean, whether that led to deaths or things. I don't know that that hasn't been reported.

00:09:39 Andrew Keen: But well, but, David [sic — addressing Michael], you this is the first book on them. So you have, I would say, a responsibility, but you know more about it than others. Did you actually talk for this book? Did you talk to people who worked at Hobby Lobby?

00:09:50 Michael Blanding: I talked to some employees. That wasn't really the main focus of my book about the company itself. The focus of my book was really on the influence that the family has had on, politics and, religion in the United States. And that's the place where I feel like, you know, regardless of their beliefs, that they've really done an incredible amount of damage. And, you know, when you're dealing with somebody who has fundamentalist principles, one of the things that comes through very clearly is they believe that, America should be run as a Christian nation according to biblical principles, and they have the one true way and that other world views are wrong and incompatible with that. So they really you know, to your point in the beginning of the show about, the attack on democracy, they really, it's a full-on attack on pluralistic society. And, you know, they have been behind the scenes or, you know, publicly and, privately funding, anti-abortion causes, anti-LGBTQ rights, and, you know, have done, you know, a lot of individual damage.

00:10:56 Andrew Keen: But, David and we've talked about this before. So we're sorry, Michael. You're gonna be forever now miss out. You're gonna be forever, identified as David Green. Maybe I'll get David Green on and call him Michael.

00:11:14 Michael Blanding: Sounds good. If you can get him to talk to you.

00:11:16 Andrew Keen: Revenge. Maybe God works.

00:11:18 Michael Blanding: Godspeed. He wouldn't talk to me. So if he talks to you, that would be great.

00:11:21 Andrew Keen: But in all seriousness Yeah. You said they're against democracy. And then you went on to say, well, they're against LGBT and abortion rights, but they have every right. That's not a being against democracy. They have a position. They don't think that abortion should be legal. They perhaps think that people should biologically somehow I don't wanna get into that debate, but you know where I'm coming from. So why does this make them against democracy?

00:11:48 Michael Blanding: Well, it's this idea that America should be run according to these biblical principles, and they believe that, America was founded by a Christian nation, by evangelical Christians, and the history really doesn't bear that out.

00:12:02 Andrew Keen: But Well, it does. I mean, you could argue. We've done many shows. In fact, couple of months ago, we did a one of the great historians of American religion suggests that America is, by definition, for better or worse, a Christian nation. I mean, it's a credible argument.

00:12:15 Michael Blanding: I think most mainstream, historians would dispute that. I think that, you know, certainly in the early days of the founding, you know, by the Puritans and things like that, there was a strong religious bent that, you know, they look to America as this kind of you know, they look themselves like these new Israelites who were coming to, found, you know, this city on the hill, so to speak. But in the actual founding of the country, there's a real turn away from that and, you know, towards these more, deistic principles towards this more kind of, egalitarian and, ecumenical, concept of God that really kind of puts the, puts the lie to this idea that America was founded, you know, by these people who are, you know, quote, unquote, evangelical Christians, if that term really even existed at the time.

00:13:03 Andrew Keen: So you've looked, Michael, at David Green's ideas. In fact, he has a book, a best selling book, Leadership Not by the Book: 12 Unconventional Principles That Drive Incredible Results, which got several hundred mostly positive reviews for better or worse on Amazon. Does he wanna do away with democracy? Does he believe that we, secularists, have a right to vote and try to shape the republic according to our own values, or does he think that, there is only one way and that you shouldn't even have elections in this country?

00:13:43 Michael Blanding: No. I don't think that they go that far to, go against democracy. They certainly work within the democratic system. You know, they are associated in some ways with, this trend in, American Christianity called dominionism, which looks to this principle called Seven Mountains dominionism, which is, looks to have, evangelical Christians control these seven mountains. And I forget what they are, but it's government and entertainment and law. And so they're really working within the system, but there's this real kind of, passionate sort of crusade on their behalf to, sort of, you know, conquer these different areas of American society and run them according to this, you know, fundamentalist Christian belief.

00:14:30 Andrew Keen: You went into this, David [sic], as a researcher. Were you chilled by what you found, in your research on Hobby Lobby and David Perrin [sic — likely David Green]?

00:14:39 Michael Blanding: I think what was surprising to me was just how much influence this one family has. Like I say, they, you know, acquired this vast amount of wealth through this craft store. And so, you know, when I say they kind of, you know, stumbled in the business, they didn't really set out to, you know, you know, make these billions, but that's sort of what happened. And at a certain point, David sort of has this kind of crisis where he says, we're just making too much money. What am I gonna do with it? And he at that point, he decided that, you know, he was going to step up, you know, his contributions to, the Lord in his, figuring in. And, so they have, you know, almost single handedly propped up evangelical education in the United States. They have, put forth these huge ad campaigns. They've donated to these groups that have, written laws and fought court cases, you know, in particular on abortion, birth control, LGBTQ rights. And, you know, you really see they've sort of got their fingers in all these different pies and, you know, have, were influential in getting Donald Trump reelected. And, so it really kinda just shows you the influence that that one family can have. And yet they're sort of quiet about it, and at least publicly, you know, they sort of present this image of this kind of, you know, kinder and gentler Jesus that accepts everyone, but sort of behind the scenes. And in some of their writings, they, you know, really, are very clear that there's really one way that they believe that what we all should live.

00:16:12 Andrew Keen: Where are they on Trump? I mean, Trump obviously isn't particularly good example of a Christian. I mean, even he might acknowledge that.

00:16:20 Michael Blanding: Yeah.

00:16:20 Andrew Keen: Are they, we've done a number of shows on Trump and the evangelicals. My understanding is that the evangelicals see Trump as, if not convenient, certainly the ideal vessel in the sense that he seems committed to them, but they don't necessarily idealize him in person. I mean, given Trump's history of, being in and out of court, his relationship marriages, and all the rest of it. Are they ambivalent on Trump? What's their position, David [sic]?

00:16:52 Michael Blanding: It's sort of fascinating. David Green actually came out against Trump during the 2016 election and was supporting other candidates like Marco Rubio and, other more, evangelical, leaning candidates. And, you know, he actually came out. First, he wrote an op-ed. He appeared on Fox News speaking out against Trump as this, you know, really poor example of a, you know, moral leader. But as soon as Trump became the nominee, he, like many, evangelical Christians, fell in line and, you know, looked to the Supreme Court as kind of the ultimate prize and looked to Trump as somebody who is going to secure, you know, a right wing bet on the Supreme Court. And, you know, there's this kind of trend within, evangelical Christians in the United States that looks at Trump exactly as you say as a sort of imperfect vessel, of God's will. And they compare him actually to some sort of, pagan kings from the Old Testament, this one king, Cyrus, this king of Persia who freed the Jews from the Babylonian captivity. And, you know, they directly associate Trump as this, you know, Cyrus figure, quote, unquote, that, is going to kind of deliver, America for, for, Christianity and for conservative Christian principles. And, to, you know, their credit, he's done a lot to do that. He's really pushed the bounds, you know, through the Supreme Court and through executive orders. He's really pushed the bounds far, far more than any, president even those that have associated themselves with conservative Christianity in the past.

00:18:27 Andrew Keen: Where is Green and his family on January 6 and the insurrection?

00:18:33 Michael Blanding: Yeah. So what was interesting to me was, you know, again, they're not sort of directly involved in those kind of politics, but they created something. I spent a lot of time in my book talking about this creation of theirs called the Museum of the Bible, which is a museum that they put into Washington, DC and, sort of filled with all these biblical artifacts, which, many of them ended up being, looted and stolen. We can talk about that and how that matches up with their biblical principles.

00:19:03 Andrew Keen: But, you know, again, I'm I wonder whether they were actually acknowledged or even aware of that. But, anyway, go on.

00:19:09 Michael Blanding: Yeah. We could talk about that. But, the reason I bring it up is because the Museum of the Bible, sort of became this kind of base camp for, these, you know, really, you might even say radical Christian conservatives, who, you know, held their conferences there, held their meetings there, and kind of used it as a place to kind of, you know, they called it God's base camp, one of them then said. And, many of the people who—

00:19:38 Andrew Keen: Yeah. Michael, the there's an Yeah. People might be listening or watching. I think this guy from Boston is so patronizing. You know, every time you mention God's base camp, you smile slightly. What's wrong with that? Shouldn't we admire that? They believe in what they believe in the same way as liberals have faith, ideology. Why should we be suspicious of these people? They set up this museum. It's certainly not one that I personally probably would go to, Museum of the Bible. They committed significant wealth to, showing off Bible relics. Why should we be suspicious of this? Shouldn't this be admirable?

00:20:17 Michael Blanding: Well, I think that, you know, as an investigative reporter, I've really written the book in a way that people can make up their own minds about it. But, you know, I make no secret of the fact that, you know, there are aspects of it that are disturbing. And, you know, one of those has to do with the fact that they really believe that the Bible is the ultimate source of law in the United States and the world, and their mission is to spread the Bible around the world and to have people live according to, its principles as they see them, as they believe them. And, you know, there's something that is, you know, very, as you say, anti democratic about that, that America was founded on a as a country that believes in religious freedom, people's freedom to practice any religion. And, you know, when you go in with that mentality, it really, you know, affects the, you know, the laws that you're going to pass and the way that you're gonna run society. And, you know, the, you know, people, not necessarily the Greens themselves, but, you know, you have Mike Johnson as the Speaker of the House who, you know, makes no bones about the fact that he, wants to wants America to run according to a biblical worldview and, you know, he said that if you wanna know what he believes, open up the Bible and read. And, you know, I think that's something that, again, I let readers make up their mind about that, but I think that's something that's potentially disturbing.

00:21:50 Andrew Keen: Yeah. I have to admit I'm not disturbed. I mean, I'm not a Bible reader myself. I'm not even Christian, but, I mean, that's their faith, and they have every right to it, as long as they don't impose it on others. Are you suggesting then that if these people and in a sense, I guess, with Trump, they've come to power. What would they do to the unbelievers? Would they throw them out the country? Would they force them to believe? Would they turn them into trad wives? So we're talking about a Handmaid's Tale scenario here?

00:22:19 Michael Blanding: I mean, in the most, you know, extreme, rhetoric of these people, that's exactly what they talk about. They talk about, you know, there's this, passage in the Old Testament about, putting a stone around the neck of homosexuals and drowning them and, you know, they talk about that.

00:22:36 Andrew Keen: Yeah. But it's one thing to find that in the Bible. The [unclear] is, is David Green ever talked about putting a stone around the neck of a homosexual and drown—

00:22:44 Michael Blanding: —itself. No. But people who are associated with this movement, with these, you know, fundamentalists and charismatic beliefs, you know, people who have, as I say, held their conferences at the Museum of the Bible, people who are associated with, organizations that the Green family has, helped support through their money. So, you know, that's to say, you'll never hear the Green family, stand up and say things like that. And yet with the, kind of money and infrastructure that they've been able to create, they've really opened up the door for those kind of beliefs.

00:23:17 Andrew Keen: Is your logic now a kind of guilt by association? The very logic that people on the right use in critiquing somebody like George Soros?

00:23:27 Michael Blanding: No. I think it goes much further than that. I mean, the Greens have, you know, I wasn't able to speak with them for the book, but they have been very verbose in terms of writing books and giving interviews and things. And, you know, Steve Green, for example, David Green's, son, you know, is on record, you know, saying very explicitly that there is one worldview, and it is the, you know, fundamentalist Christian worldview, and it's incompatible with any other worldviews that, you know, pluralism should not exist in society because the rules are laid out in the Bible. And, you know, if you wanna get into heaven, then those are the rules that you have to follow. And, you know, one of the other projects that, he's been involved in, which ultimately wasn't successful, was about, teaching the Bible in schools. And, you know, you may say, well, you know, what's wrong with that? You know, the Bible's a really influential book, and, you know, you should have that in the classroom. But the curriculum that, he and others designed in order to do that was one that really taught the Bible in accordance with these kind of evangelical Protestant principles that really held it up as this kind of reliable historical truth, which is just really not accurate.

00:24:43 Andrew Keen: One of your other books was The Map Thief, about, this the stealing of priceless maps. And as I said, you were last on the show asking whether Shakespeare was a plagiarist. I know you have a particular interest in the book and in your research on this Museum of the Bible that the Greens set up in DC, especially since a lot of the exhibits or artifacts you believe might either be, inauthentic or stolen. Tell me more about that and why this museum might not be quite the credible museum that they present to have.

00:25:21 Michael Blanding: Yeah. Well, that was actually what drew me to the story originally was, you know, I'd written about, The Map Thief about, you know, the theft of these, historical artifacts. I'd written about Shakespeare, you know, which is very heavily based in looking at text. And, I came across an article about this, ancient cuneiform tablet called the, Gilgamesh Dream Tablet that the, federal government seized from the Museum of the Bible. It was worth $1.7 million, and, they seized it as being illegally looted from Iraq. And about halfway down the article, they said that the owners of the tablet were the Hobby Lobby Corporation and the Green family, and that just was really shocking to me. I said, you know, what is it about this, you know, family of business people with these craft stores that's, you know, possessing this really valuable, object of cultural heritage? And, turns out that they actually acquired some 40,000, artifacts, cuneiform tablets, papyrus scrolls, Torah scrolls in order to stock this museum in part to prove that the Bible is historically true and accurate. You know, that's a part real part of their project. And it turns out that, you know, they really dealt with, some shady people, some shady dealers, and, they almost had to give all of the artifacts back eventually. They had those Dead Sea Scrolls that you have there that, many of those, did were determined to be actually forged. And although—

00:26:50 Andrew Keen: they paid considerable money for them.

00:26:52 Michael Blanding: Oh, yes. They did. Yeah. And—

00:26:53 Andrew Keen: They're there, the fools rather than us. They lost their money. Anyone who shops at Hobby Lobby, some of their money goes towards that.

00:27:02 Michael Blanding: Yes. But they also made a lot of money because what they were able to do was to acquire these items, in some cases, very cheaply, and then they would get them reappraised for a much higher value and then donate them to the museum, which was a separate nonprofit, and they were able to deduct that from their taxes. So in some cases, the artifacts pay for themselves or they even made money, on those—

00:27:22 Andrew Keen: Well, that's a rich person's stretch. Is all rich people on left and right do that. Sure. Do that. And—

00:27:29 Michael Blanding: and they found, you know, they found this way that they could both, you know, support their faith and, you know, get around paying taxes. And it was very ingenious. It was very, you know, completely legal at the same time. You know? They, they were profiting from it.

00:27:45 Andrew Keen: Couple more questions. I was gonna call you David, Michael.

00:27:49 Michael Blanding: Here you go.

00:27:50 Andrew Keen: I'm not gonna make that error again. I get struck down by God. Another of your book, another of your very successful books was The Coke Machine, the dirt— C-O-K-E, not the Koch brothers. The Coke Machine: The Dirty Truth Behind the World's Favorite Soft Drink. Coke, of course, is one of the great commercial, entrepreneurial stories, Coca-Cola in US history. In a way, is Hobby Lobby as American as Coke for better or worse? Does it reflect on America in a way?

00:28:25 Michael Blanding: I mean, you can make that case. It's certainly not as well known as Coca-Cola. I mean, you know, it's a company that people know in America, but I don't think most people give Hobby Lobby much thought. Where it—

00:28:37 Andrew Keen: What I meant was sort of intrinsically American. It somehow reflects all the contradictions, the hypocrisies, the both the strengths and the weaknesses of America.

00:28:49 Michael Blanding: Yeah. I think that, it represents a sort of polarizing idea in America. I think if people know about Hobby Lobby outside of the craft store business they associated with the Supreme Court case in 2014 in which the company successfully argued that it didn't have to give birth control, didn't have to, give insurance that supported birth control for its employees. And so a lot of people won't shop there. They see it as being anti women and, conservative and, you know, Christian in a way that they're not comfortable with, and they won't shop there. Whereas, there's a significant portion of the populace that shops there because of that. And, you know, they're closed on Sundays in order to honor the Lord, and they appreciate that. So it really kind of represents this, you know, flashpoint in a way that, you know, people either, you know, love it or hate it, but a lot of people feel very strongly about it.

00:29:45 Andrew Keen: Finally, Michael, what did this what should this book perhaps convince us to do on the policy side? We've done many, many shows as all podcasts seem to do on, financial reform in the United States when it comes to money and politics. From this book, should one come to the conclusion that incredibly wealthy families like the Greens shouldn't be allowed to pour money, so much money into politics? Should they be allowed to set up museums in Washington, DC? What are the policy recommendations that come out of this kind of book?

00:30:25 Michael Blanding: Yeah. I don't really feel like that's my role as a reporter to tell people what to do. I think that what I set out to do with this book was to explain a little bit more about what Christian nationalism is and what the people who adhere to it believe. And, you know, it's something that is, you know, according to the polls that you read, it's something that a third of people in the United States subscribe to. And yet you hear this term, you don't really understand sort of, you know, the implications of it. And so I tried to write this from the perspective of the Green family, tried to honestly engage with what they believe and what motivates them. At the same time, you know, showing the vast influence that they've had and, you know, how this translates into policy and culture, whether it's, the laws that are passed or the court cases that, you know, are arguing for, quote, unquote, religious freedom that really are, you know, pushing for, you know, one particular religious, idea. And, to educate people. What they do with that information, I mean, that's not for me to judge.

00:31:27 Andrew Keen: Yeah. But it's for you to judge writing this book. And you know as well as I do that this is not an objective, undertaking. You have your own agenda for better or worse. So if we do indeed have a third of Americans who are evangelical, and that's I don't know. Whatever it is, 100, 150 million Americans. What does this suggest if what you're saying is right that they don't accept democracy, that it's the Bible or death, even heaven and hell and the rest of, the Christian architecture? What does this suggest, Michael, about the future of America? Not just American democracy, but America itself.

00:32:07 Michael Blanding: Well, I mean, I think we can see the direction that America's been headed. It's been interesting because when I started this book in 2022, the term Christian nationalist had sort of just begun to, appear in kind of mainstream culture, and now it's, you know, on everyone's lips. And, you know, Trump for, you know, as imperfect as he might be in the eyes of Christians, has been very effective at, pushing the courts to the right, very effective in, pushing, you know, the, the laws to support, these exceptionalism for these conservative Christian views. And so, you know, in terms of, what people should take away from it, I think it's really important that people see that. And, you know, again, what they do about it, you know, is up to them. If it needs expanding the Supreme Court or it needs voting different people into office. You know, that's really, you know, for people to decide. But—

00:33:06 Andrew Keen: They're not gonna go to hell, though, Michael, if they don't buy the book, are they? Do you want people that you're gonna fry forever if you don't buy Michael Blanding's new book, The God of War [as spoken]—

00:33:15 Michael Blanding: Some people might say you buy my book, you will go to hell, but I'll leave them in chat for people [unclear]. Wow.

00:33:20 Andrew Keen: Michael, you've done us a great service, an important new book. It's your fourth book. All your books have done extremely well.

00:33:27 Michael Blanding: Thank you.

00:33:28 Andrew Keen: You claim to be an objective investigative journalist. I'm not sure quite sure on the objectivity. I mean, it's certainly the work is objective, but certainly the project in itself suggests the politics, which actually I share with you. So I think we should credit you with that. The book is out. The Gospel According to Hobby Lobby by Michael Blanding. It's on the Green family, the people who own Hobby Lobby, very revealing and important new book. Thank you so much, Michael.

00:33:54 Michael Blanding: Thank you, Harry [sic]. I appreciate it.